E-G Media Railway Blog

[E-G Media]

Hello all!

I've recently embarked on a consumer-advice venture in heritage railways; reviewing examples around the UK to see what sort of experience they provide for their money. These reviews are then posted on a blog, which is currently being updated on a weekly basis:

http://e-gmedia.blogspot.com/

I try to remain neutral, un-biased and fair-minded in all categories; such as pricing, visitor attractiveness, interest in rolling stock, catering, gift shops, etc. Further more, as an active member of the Bluebell Railway, I am aware of the effort that volunteers put into keeping these railways operational. So to clarify, no hard feelings are intended. These reviews are here to provide a service; to inform the average enthusiast/tourist what to expect when they make a visit on a normal operational day.



Hope you enjoy what you read!

 

[E&W Lucas]

Do you have any sort of background in market research?

A quick skim of what you have written suggests to me that you are looking at the subject from the enthusiast's perspective. Listing railway DVD titles sold, etc. I think that you are missing the point. The major lines are in the tourist/ family day out business. Enthusiast customers are a bonus. To expand further, the money in shops comes from tat for kids; there's no margin on the enthusiast stuff.

I'm not too sure that anyone will take too much notice of your site, but please reflect before you post anything negative about anywhere. Preserved railways are real world businesses and employers. They are peoples' livelyhoods.

 

[E-G Media]

Do you have any sort of background in market research?

Alas, I do not. But that's no reason to suggest that anyone who isn't is not in a position to see what's what.

A quick skim of what you have written suggests to me that you are looking at the subject from the enthusiast's perspective. Listing railway DVD titles sold, etc. I think that you are missing the point. The major lines are in the tourist/ family day out business. Enthusiast customers are a bonus. To expand further, the money in shops comes from tat for kids; there's no margin on the enthusiast stuff.

The intention is to try and offer consumer advice to anyone who holds an interest in visiting heritage railways. Not just the average enthusiast, but also for tourists and families; hence why ticket prices and visitor attractiveness are highlighted in the overall experience. I don't just concentrate on the contents of gift shops alone, but their existence is important enough to atleast mention.

I'm not too sure that anyone will take too much notice of your site, but please reflect before you post anything negative about anywhere. Preserved railways are real world businesses and employers. They are peoples' livelyhoods.

I'm aware of this, which is why the intention (which I cannot make any clearer) is to remain fair-minded. I'm an active member of one of the UK's biggest heritage lines, so I already have an idea of how important they are to many thousands of bystanders and workers, combined.
Regarding visitor numbers, it's already started stirring up interest on other forums and sites. Small beginnings, yes; but time and effort can work wonders on improvements.

I'm not trying to stir up any trouble, by any means. The whole point of this blog is to try and give people an expectation of what's on offer; as well as, eventually, a touch of humour. However, if you don't like what you read, there's no obligation for you to bother with it. Furthermore, I have only been trying this for two months, so early issues are bound to occur; but they cannot be aided with non-constructive criticism.

 

[Mvann]

Do you need to be a member to post a comment. Just there was a couple of points to do with fares on the nene valley railway I wanted to post

 

[E-G Media]

Do you need to be a member to post a comment. Just there was a couple of points to do with fares on the nene valley railway I wanted to post

I'm not entirely sure. I've seen other sites on BlogSpot where viewers have replied anonymously, so I'd assume there shouldn't be any problems.

If there are, don't hesitate to let me know. I shall be happy to answer any questions you may have or points you wish to make.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Alas, I do not. But that's no reason to suggest that anyone who isn't is not in a position to see what's what.

Having worked for a market research agency for a time, I would suggest that there is a considerable degree of skill in conducting an exercise like this objectively.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Regarding visitor numbers, it's already started stirring up interest on other forums and sites. Small beginnings, yes; but time and effort can work wonders on improvements.

Sorry, but I suspect that is how most of us that are actually involved in preservation will view this.

The major lines already carry out market research on their customer base. They often employ marketing professionals anyway, or can call on the "real world" experience of their membership.

 

[E-G Media]

Originally Posted by E-G Media
Regarding visitor numbers, it's already started stirring up interest on other forums and sites. Small beginnings, yes; but time and effort can work wonders on improvements.


Sorry, but I suspect that is how most of us that are actually involved in preservation will view this.

The major lines already carry out market research on their customer base. They often employ marketing professionals anyway, or can call on the "real world" experience of their membership.

I do not intend to form this thread into a debate. But myself, and several colleagues from various heritage lines, feel that comments like these are more a matter of opinion. And as such, if one doesn't like it, then they shouldn't bother with it.



Getting back on topic, here is this week's review. Focusing on the North Yorkshire Moors Rly. Hope one enjoys!
http://e-gmedia.blogspot.com/2011/08/north-yorkshire-moors-railway-review.html

 

[E&W Lucas]

That's a fair review of the NYMR, but there's a couple of factual errors, which show the perils of this type of thing.

The main one is regarding Whitby tickets. On days that Pickering to Whitby services operate, NYMR tickets are NOT valid on Northern services.

The Station Tavern at Grosmont is absolutely nothing to do with the NYMR.

It is normal for the trains to have a trolley on them. Buffet cars are not normally provided. (pity).

Re your comments about loco storage, perhaps it might have been better to have checked some facts before making critical comments. Of course we would all like to see all out of traffic locos and coaches in covered storage, but the cash to provide it is not limitless, planning in a National Park is somewhat difficult, and there is a shortage of suitable land. There is a long term project in place to build a new shed on the site behind the NELPG shed. Some of us would have prioritised that ahead of the Pickering roof, but that's yesterday's debate.

How did you find the station shops, from the point f view of the tourist?
The Shed Shop is a totally separate entity, with all profits going to the MPD. They sell keenly priced model railway, and also footplate kit. Mail order available - http://www.nymr.co.uk/shedshop/

 

[E-G Media]

That's a fair review of the NYMR, but there's a couple of factual errors, which show the perils of this type of thing.

I'm glad to go over anything you've pointed out. But please remember, as someone who tries to keep an open mind about all issues concerned, debating is NOT something I wish to divulge in. I shall therefore be thankful if such concerns can be settled constructively.

The main one is regarding Whitby tickets. On days that Pickering to Whitby services operate, NYMR tickets are NOT valid on Northern services.

I managed to get to Whitby with mine; on this and previous visits. Certainly, the ticket officer didn't have an issue with it.
Maybe it's one of those policies that amounts in-consitancy from different members of staff.

The Station Tavern at Grosmont is absolutely nothing to do with the NYMR.

Since when did I state that it was?

It is normal for the trains to have a trolley on them. Buffet cars are not normally provided. (pity).

This, I agree with. But most railways I've experienced do provide a buffet car. Not strictly on every single train (most vintage trains wouldn't provide one for practical and authentic reasons), but few railways I've witnessed ignore on-train refreshment facilities all together.

Re your comments about loco storage, perhaps it might have been better to have checked some facts before making critical comments. Of course we would all like to see all out of traffic locos and coaches in covered storage, but the cash to provide it is not limitless, planning in a National Park is somewhat difficult, and there is a shortage of suitable land. There is a long term project in place to build a new shed on the site behind the NELPG shed. Some of us would have prioritised that ahead of the Pickering roof, but that's yesterday's debate.

You raise a fair point regarding planning permission (which, I thank you for pointing out). However, it's still a concern. There wasn't even a tarpaulin covering 'Dame Vera Lynne' (which, as other heritage lines have proved, WOULD HELP!). Would investment in several tarps hurt anyone's pocket as much as a new shed? OR require planning permission?

How did you find the station shops, from the point f view of the tourist?
The Shed Shop is a totally separate entity, with all profits going to the MPD. They sell keenly priced model railway, and also footplate kit. Mail order available - http://www.nymr.co.uk/shedshop/

As far as the tourist goes, I couldn't see much of an issue being raised.
Although an independent affair, the Shed Shop is still technically part of the railway and therefore deserves a mention.



Thank you once again, for raising these concerns.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Surely the whole point of a forum is debate?

Whitby ticketing - it's a policy change for this season. Northern did accept NYMR tickets in previous years. Please see information contained herein: http://www.nymr.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/NYMR_TT_2011.pdf

Station Tav - clarifying the point. It's a mistake that has been made before.

Tarpaulins - Dame Vera LYNN did have a tarp over it. Wonder where that's gone?

Shed Shop - most definitely part of the railway, and I am glad you mentioned it. Was just giving it a bit more of a plug, and emphasing that the profits go directly into the MPD.

It's a pity that you didn't pick one of the other six days of the week, when trains are running into Whitby, or that you didn't sample any of the other products and services on offer. Our highly regarded dining services, occasional Esk Valley Line excursions, footplate experience, facilities for schools, etc.

 

[E-G Media]

Surely the whole point of a forum is debate?

Certainly not! Especially if they amount to serious arguments at the touch of a button.

I have moderated other forums in my time and it is a prime policy that any form of argument and spamming is immediately quashed; for the sake of keeping a peaceful environment. Afterall, there are several internet users who have yet to reach adulthood and will, therefore, be oblivious to the rules and limits imposed.

Whitby ticketing - it's a policy change for this season. Northern did accept NYMR tickets in previous years. Please see information contained herein: http://www.nymr.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/NYMR_TT_2011.pdf

...my mistake.
It's still strange that the ticket officer on the Northern Train service didn't point this out. This policy change must be gently sinking in.

It's a pity that you didn't pick one of the other six days of the week, when trains are running into Whitby, or that you didn't sample any of the other products and services on offer. Our highly regarded dining services, occasional Esk Valley Line excursions, footplate experience, facilities for schools, etc.

As tempted as I was, not all members of the public would be able to afford the time or money to undertake these; certainly a student like ME couldn't do that with every single railway.
Part of the test I set, to make sure each railway avoids receiving bias, is to visit on normal service days when there's not so much going on. Afterall, there are some who say that they will only visit certain railways on gala weekends and avoid them at all other periods. So on that basis, the 'normal day' experience deserves witnessing from the casual visitor's POV. If anything, most of what I've proved has shown that you don't need a special event to make your railway worth visiting; showing that people who only go to railways just to see the engines alone are missing out on much else besides!



Just out of interest E&W Lucas, are you connected with the NYMR at all?

 

[Darandio]

Surely the whole point of a forum is debate?

Certainly not!

April Fool surely?

 

[ainsworth74]

Certainly not! Especially if they amount to serious arguments at the touch of a button.

I have moderated other forums in my time and it is a prime policy that any form of argument and spamming is immediately quashed; for the sake of keeping a peaceful environment. Afterall, there are several internet users who have yet to reach adulthood and will, therefore, be oblivious to the rules and limits imposed.

Sorry to go off topic here but are you telling me that on the forum you moderate that any sort of debate/argument isn't allowed?! What on earth do you talk about then as on this forum if we banned debate/argument* most threads would only be a couple of posts long! Also I don't see what a posters age has to do with anything, we have several members on here who are in the 13-16 age bracket and they seem perfectly capable of understanding the rules (and if they don't then a quick explanation normal does the trick).

* Personal attacks, flaming and trolling are of course not allowed.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Part of the test I set, to make sure each railway avoids receiving bias, is to visit on normal service days when there's not so much going on. Afterall, there are some who say that they will only visit certain railways on gala weekends and avoid them at all other periods. So on that basis, the 'normal day' experience deserves witnessing from the casual visitor's POV. If anything, most of what I've proved has shown that you don't need a special event to make your railway worth visiting; showing that people who only go to railways just to see the engines alone are missing out on much else besides!



Just out of interest E&W Lucas, are you connected with the NYMR at all?

TBH, you've not visited the NYMR on a "Normal" day, but on one of our quietest ones. Whitby is now 6 days a week through the operating season, and there's usually more than two locos in traffic.

The additional products are very much part of the offering, so do need to be considered. If you're going to compare value, it should be against other day out options in the area, rather than just comparing £/ mile to other railways.

I am an NYMR steam and diesel driver, and have been a regular volunteer there for over 25 years.

As for debate, if you're a student, you should be encouraging it, not trying to suppress it. What are they teaching at uni's these days?

 

[E-G Media]

Sorry to go off topic here but are you telling me that on the forum you moderate that any sort of debate/argument isn't allowed?! What on earth do you talk about then as on this forum if we banned debate/argument* most threads would only be a couple of posts long! Also I don't see what a posters age has to do with anything, we have several members on here who are in the 13-16 age bracket and they seem perfectly capable of understanding the rules (and if they don't then a quick explanation normal does the trick).

* Personal attacks, flaming and trolling are of course not allowed.

As per usual forum guidelines, any form of debate that leads to serious ranting, raving and dispute has to remain quashed. It's the best way to maintain a friendly environment and attract new members.

Regarding posters age: Most of the people on the forums I'm associated with are in our late teens/early 20s, so most of us are grown up enough to respect each others limits. Those who are not, are given a fair chance to respect guidelines laid down by Proboards, or are dealt with accordingly.

As for debate, if you're a student, you should be encouraging it, not trying to suppress it. What are they teaching at uni's these days?

I'm simply not prepared to argue about something as enjoyable as a hobby. End of.



Now, can we please keep this discussion on topic?

 

[E&W Lucas]

I'm simply not prepared to argue about something as enjoyable as a hobby. End of.



Now, can we please keep this discussion on topic?

The discussion is precisely on topic. The accuracy of statements that you have made has been corrected, and previously, the validity of some of the assumptions that you have made has been questioned. All of the above in a polite, professional manner. You seem to be scared of this?

Reading between the lines a little, you seem to be trying to put together some sort of semi - commercial project? CV enhancement?

If so, and if you do have a genuine interest in the heritage railway sector, then you would be far better off gaining work experience in the marketing departments of heritage railways themselves. They are real world businesses, and can give you real world experience, once you prove yourself.

 

[seanoc17]

I for one am a big fan of the blog.

It highlights the assumptions and general impressions one gets when a railway is visited.

I think the discouraging nature in which this blog has been received is a shame really.

Factual corrections are indeed important but I think calling into question the validity of assumptions etc is missing the point. As long as they are not stated as fact it's a perfectly reasonable thing to write and surely it can only serve to highlight that perhaps this is the impression some people get, whether it is considered valid or not. That in my mind is a constructive thing.

There seems to be a miscommunication on the subject of debate here also.

Debate means different things to different people in my experience as a forum mod elsewhere. When people hear that word some bring to mind an unhealthy argument, or a debate which will degenerate into such. Others see it as healthy constructive discussion. Either way it depends on the person in question's history in the forums he or she has visited.

I was a big fan of the NYMR blog. It pretty much summed up alot of my thoughts from my last visit, especially the open air stock. I know from experience its not always practical to have a building to store everything in, but to see such a lack of any visual evidence of effort to conserve the stock kept outside was a bit heartbreaking. I can't recall seeing a single tarp on Dame Vera Lynn (God forbid someone should mistype the name), and seeing some of the damage to other locos in various stages of dismantling was a bit concerning. Tar, Tarpaulins, Pseudo poly tunnels made from old tubes and tarps as per the early Mid Hants Railway days, ANYTHING.

I am not interested so much in the why nots and excuses, fact is its something every railway is guilty of to a degree, but to see it on that vast scale with no evidence that any attempt of conservation had been attempted does not give a positive image for the railway at all.

A shame really that it should be a blight on what is a railway with alot to offer every type of visitor.

No enthusiast or volunteer likes to read negatives about the railways closest to their heart but some things cannot be denied.

I for one would encourage you to continue. Of course in any published media there will be the odd factual error but I suppose that is what places like this are for, to help relevant corrections to be made in a timely and discreet manner.

I for one intend to make sure as much people take notice of your blog as possible because it looks at a railway through the eyes of someone not interested in politics, promoting or dressing down a railway. Its just calling it as one sees it, and frankly alot of the negatives are nicely complimented with a positive spin such as the negative of you only getting a catering trolley, but the positive that its the effort of providing catering when a buffet car isnt available. I can't see why anyone would choose to get so defensive about that.

Best of luck to you sir, please do continue!

 

[E&W Lucas]

An interesting contribution from a brand new member. I wonder how many people would go to such lengths to defend someone else's blog?

Factually again, 3672 (we'll use its number to prevent confusion over spelling) definitely had a tarp over it last year, because I was involved in a discussion with the gentleman who kindly provided it.

As for 'excuses' over unrestored stock, demand will always exceed supply. Every railway has a 'dump' somewhere. Believe it or not, in the real world there is a limit to the money available for restoration, buildings, manpower and workshop capacity.

 

[seanoc17]

I have been a casual browser of this forum for some time now, and decided to join in the debate when I felt I had something to say, which as it turns out was yesterday. I simply felt I had an opinion on what seemed to be a disagreement with an unfortunate side effect that a good peice of media in our hobby was being dragged through the mud.

As a railway volunteer myself, I do indeed realise the limits and constraints that all railways face financially, but again as I stated before the fact that no attempt had APPEARED to have been made simply makes the railway look like it has a scrapyard on it's backstep which is a bad image for any railway. In the NYMR's case it is on somewhat of a larger scale with it all being in the one place.

Whether 3672 in particular had a tarp on her at one point in time or not is one thing. The fact that she and many others hadn't in two visits, assuming the blog was written soon after this gentleman's visit, with about 10 months between is more important of a fact to me. Surely no railway is THAT bad for money that tarpaulins or other cheap conservation tactics cannot be funded. From the one's I'm involved with I don't think I've ever heard that reason for their lacking before! I agree some locomotives simply have to be dumped because they are at the wrong end of the restoration queue, but if it is known that they are going to be stationary, outside for so long a period there really is no reason that these very cheap and easy conservation methods cannot be employed. Again the NYMR is by far not the only railway to be guilty of this, almost all are, but not quite on the scale of the NYMR unfortunatly for whatever reason that is.

Despite what you might think, other people do live in the real word sir and just because their opinion clashes with your own or the idealistic image you'd like people to have of your railway does not mean that they are people you need take a condescending attitude towards.

 

[Mvann]

Are the factual corrections being corrected on the blog anywhere?

 

[E&W Lucas]

Let's settle an argument - taken in April, alongside one S160 280, which is for sale if anyone's interested, and ex GWR 280 3814, which is a partly complete private restoration project. Hardly a large junk tip! A shame all three aren't serviceable though!

 

[E-G Media]

Let's settle an argument - taken in April, alongside one S160 280, which is for sale if anyone's interested, and ex GWR 280 3814, which is a partly complete private restoration project. Hardly a large junk tip! A shame all three aren't serviceable though!

Alright, alright, if you insist, point made.

However, if you're going to insist that I just made up what I had stated without even bothering to look, you too are guilty of factual error. I might not have been able to see the whole locomotive from where I was able to reach, but what I could see (whole tender, cab poking into view), was still in a less-than-ideal condition.
Further more, if you read what I had written, I was quoted saying:

some of those in storage were looking quite worse for wear, particularly WD 2-10-0 No 3672 ‘Dame Vera Lynn’, which looks as though it has been left in the open for several years

At no point in the post itself was there any clear statement that no effort was being made to protect dormant stock from the elements.
...and I certainly had no intention of implying that NYMR members didn't care about the conservation of their stock either!




Looking back, yes; I could have picked a better example of what was there for all to see. But, perhaps for the dignity of yourself and the NYMR, it's just as well that I didn't...

Are the factual corrections being corrected on the blog anywhere?

For the principle of truth, spelling and grammer are being tweaked whenever pointed out. Furthermore, what was said about validity of Whitby tickets has been altered to what's been stated in the 2011 brochure; even if I slipped through a net without realizing it.

 

[seanoc17]

I don't think anyone is disputing that the loco in question had a tarp over it at some point, but from what Myself and others have observed she has apparently spent more time without one than with.

A S160, a design not meant to last without heavy maintenance, to be without one and trying to sell the bugger does however reinforce the point.

I also find it a bit telling that a)some had to donate the tarp as you said earlier, and therefore b) would have to have seen a need to do so.

I would point out that that is also a very small portion of the yard, and an unfair representation of what is quite a large area of uncovered stock and stock parts.

I am not in any judging the volunteers, I have every confidence all want the best for the locos on the railway, but if it is indeed a financial issue then I would say there are some poor decisions being made by whomever it is that deals with the financials, and it must be frustrating for the volunteers. I know what It's like I have experienced that myself.

 

[E-G Media]

Right, to those of you who do take an interest, here's the next update:
http://e-gmedia.blogspot.com/2011/08/mid-hants-railway-review.html

 

[seanoc17]

Very fair review of a railway very dear to my own heart.

I think the comment on historic rolling stock is a very fair one also. While recent infrastructure work and work on getting a loco fleet that actuall belongs to us has been a priority, it has been one lacking thing for a long time now.

Only other thing I would mention is the infamous Ropley Queue. Alot of uncovered stock there, which for whatever reason, paints a bit of an ugly picture when one sees it. Its also haunting for the young kiddies to see TWO James the Red Engines, neither of which with a face!

Funny how a non-functional N or U class in that guise is in theory more valuable an attraction, than the one we have that functions in it's true identity!

Way of the world I guess...

 

[E-G Media]

Okay, next one:
http://e-gmedia.blogspot.com/2011/08/update-peak-rail-review.html

 

[E-G Media]

...and next after that:
http://e-gmedia.blogspot.com/2011/09/bodmin-wendford-review.html

EDIT: 23/09/11

Something that's been offered up to me is a guest blog by a friend of mine. Allowing him to pay tribute to the soon to be relocated Mull Rail, in Scotland.
Enjoy!
http://e-gmedia.blogspot.com/2011/09/mull-rail-tribute.html