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E cigarette ban unfair?

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Radedamer

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To reiterate:
1: Vaping is much less unhealthy than smoking.
2: It is still not without risk to the vaper and 'passive vapers'.
3: Having started beyond the reach of the tobacco industry, as an alternative and threat to it, big tobacco companies now market their own vapes – some have bought out existing companies, some started new brands – and many see it as a way to renormalise smoking (the use of nicotine, basically) in the West.
4: Largely for this reason, there has been resistance to WHO intentions to classify vaping as a medical product for quitting smoking (like nicotine patches), because that would mean far stricter standards in product and marketing.
 
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me123

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Quiet agree @Butts and appreciate your correction and sticking to facts. I cite Helmut Schmidt and Winston Churchill as examples of folk who don't get taken by the weed.

I really can't believe that I have to say this in 2015. For the third time in less than 24 hours.

There is no "may" about it. Cigarettes do kill when used as intended by the manufacturer. There is evidence as far back as 1912 that cigarettes cause mortality. The fact that not every smoker dies from a smoking related illness does not change the fact that smoking does kill. If you want reasons as to why not everyone is affected: 1) some people die before the smoking related disease can cause mortality, and 2) genetics.

As for your cases... Sir Winston Churchill died of a stroke. In fact, he suffered multiple strokes in his later years. A meta-analysis published in the BMJ in 1989 looked at 32 studies and pooled the data. It demonstrated a statistically significant increase in ischaemic strokes amongst smokers. Smokers were 50% more likely to suffer an ischaemic stroke than non-smokers. Knowing that, would you say that smoking did not contribute to Churchill's death?

Herr Schmidt's exact cause of death is not very clear based on what I can see online at the moment, but I'm seeing "blood clot in leg" which I would assume to mean deep venous thrombosis. It's more difficult to discuss this one, as I don't really know the circumstances surrounding his death, and I'm wary of making too many assumptions. However, studies in both cardiovascular and haematology journals have identified smoking as a risk factor for venous thromboembolism. Again, if this is the case, then smoking has contributed to the cause of death.

As OP, I repeat that I don't see the point of people being concerned about vapers' health. We are only talking of nuisance to others here and nothing has been presented to make me think there is any serious danger to others by vaping, although I have not experienced any effect from flavoured vapes - that could be a nuisnace, if others smell it. A vapers' section on trains could perhaps be a way forward, or just allow it in the vestibule.

There is some concern to be had about health risks of vapour, as we simply do not know or understand the risks of inhaling some of the compounds used. As I've previously linked, there have been instances in the United States where carcinogenic chemicals have been found in some vapour products. But, this is all academic at this point in time.

I do have concerns that tobacco companies have a large commercial interest in e-cigarettes, which I find concerning. It is in their interests that smoking is again "normalised", and I would oppose any acts that would serve this purpose. Allowing people to use e-cigarettes in enclosed public places does normalise the act of smoking, and I would argue it should be subject to the same restrictions as a result. I would argue that the adverts for e-cigarettes should be similarly restricted. There is also evidence that the companies are targeting young people, and I have previously linked to a study demonstrating that teenagers who use e-cigarettes are considerably more likely to smoke conventional tobacco products than their peers who do not vape. On top of all this, there is (to date) no evidence at all that using electronic cigarettes alone offers any long term benefit in smoking cessation. And this makes sense - why would the companies want you lose your nicotine addiction? It's what keeps their shareholders happy.

The studies that have been done so far are in their early stages, but they concern me. E-cigarettes could be a valuable tool in smoking cessation and harm reduction, but until we have evidence as to how they can be used in this way (if, indeed, they are of any use), then I will remain sceptical. However, if you can demonstrate that they would work, I'm open to adopting them as a smoking cessation tool.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To reiterate:
1: Vaping is much less unhealthy than smoking.

How can you make this statement? The vast majority of the health risks associated with smoking result from long term use. E-cigarettes have existed only since 2003, and only really been popular in the last few years, so there simply cannot be any studies looking at the long term use of these products. The products haven't existed for long enough to allow the long term effects to be studied.

There is no evidence that vaping is healthier than smoking, or that vaping is less unhealthy than smoking. It may well be true, but we can't say that as there is no evidence.

This is not my reasons for advocating restrictions on use - see above for that. I'm just making a point that this argument that is often used does not stand up to scrutiny.
 

edwin_m

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I think the point being made by Butts and others is that smoking may not kill you, ie a specific person. Some smokers live long and healthy lives despite their habit, and whatever killed Helmut Schmidt 95 is a pretty good age to reach.

However I don't think there is any disagreement on this forum that smoking does kill a substantial proportion of the people who take it up, and it is about the only product (perhaps except armaments) that does so if used according to the manufacturer's instructions.

As a lifelong non-smoker and someone often affected by pollution including many forms of scent, I'd say that vaping should be treated exactly the same as smoking in respect of bans in public places. The likelihood of reduced health risk and the lower level of taxation ought to provide enough incentive for smokers to switch without giving them the right to use them almost everywhere, as previously existed for tobacco.
 
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me123

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I think the point being made by Butts and others is that smoking may not kill you, ie a specific person. Some smokers live long and healthy lives despite their habit, and whatever killed Helmut Schmidt 95 is a pretty good age to reach.

Yes, I do know the point they're trying to make. They've (perhaps inadvertently) made a completely false statement in doing so.

My words that they tried to "correct" are that cigarettes "may kill you" as opposed to cigarettes "do kill you". This suggests that there is some doubt as to the harmful effects of cigarettes. There is no doubt on the matter. Besides, the two examples of people who have died from non-smoking related illnesses have actually died from... smoking related illnesses! Perhaps not immediately obviously related to smoking, but there is evidence that smoking would be a contributing factor.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Yes, I do know the point they're trying to make. They've (perhaps inadvertently) made a completely false statement in doing so.

My words that they tried to "correct" are that cigarettes "may kill you" as opposed to cigarettes "do kill you". This suggests that there is some doubt as to the harmful effects of cigarettes.

I don't think they tried to say that. It is correct to say cigarettes may (not will) kill any given individual who consumes them - they will not certainly do so - many smokers have died of other causes, often after a long life. This doesn't contradict the fact that smoking does kill (there are a large number of people who have died as a result of smoking).

Smoking does not have a 100% mortality rate, just a rather high one.

The thing about cancer (the main cause of death from smoking) is that there is almost nothing, barring perhaps very heavy doses of radiation, that will *certainly* cause it. Different things just increase the chances of it to different extents.
 

najaB

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The thing about cancer (the main cause of death from smoking) is that there is almost nothing, barring perhaps very heavy doses of radiation, that will *certainly* cause it. Different things just increase the chances of it to different extents.
Even heavy radiation doses isn't certain to cause cancer - in survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki the incidence of cancer was higher than the baseline population, but nowhere near 100%.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
However I don't think there is any disagreement on this forum that smoking does kill a substantial proportion of the people who take it up, and it is about the only product (perhaps except armaments) that does so if used according to the manufacturer's instructions.
I think there's a strong case to be made that if armaments kill the user they aren't following the instructions!
 
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me123

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I would argue that the pathophysiological processes behind the multiple causes of death related to smoking (which is frequently simply considered to be "cancer", but as I've already said smoking can be linked to every one of the ten leading causes of death in the UK for both males and females) are a long term process. Whilst you may not necessarily die from one of these processes, they are slowly killing you. Whether or not something else kills you first is another matter entirely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The thing about cancer (the main cause of death from smoking) is that there is almost nothing, barring perhaps very heavy doses of radiation, that will *certainly* cause it. Different things just increase the chances of it to different extents.

This is where genetics comes into play. I've mentioned this before.

In fact, perhaps the one thing that certainly causes cancer is genetics.
 

Johncleesefan

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Smokings baaaad....mkay.

Getting to the original point of ecigs, yes they definitely should be banned from public places just like fags.

For the guy who is using it genuinely to stop smoking, he will comply by all these laws as he abided by them when smoking fags. I smoke a cheap and bog standard thing to wean myself off the real stuff and only in a designated area, why would I want to puff ot on trains and stations, that's making the temptation worse, I know the boundaries.

Its the rock star wannabies who wear their pretty (enormous) fashion accessory who will have a problem (and no genuine reason for buying it in the first place)
 

The Ham

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If there were to be vaper areas in trains these should be only accessible by users for a premium fee as otherwise (like some smoking sections before smoking was banned on trains) these could be underutilized and so could be seen as a way to get a seat on busy trains.

Of course these could be, like to the restaurant cars, the main reason that TOC's see them as a thing of the past as the railways struggle to keep up with demand.
 

TheNewNo2

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Quiet agree @Butts and appreciate your correction and sticking to facts. I cite Helmut Schmidt and Winston Churchill as examples of folk who don't get taken by the weed.

I saw a good argument on Vox.com about global warming which is relevant here:


Let's say that an evil genius develops a way to increase the Earth's gravity by 1%. Now that's a pretty minimal change, but it means that you get tired more easily, it's slightly harder to breathe. Falls do slightly more damage.

Little Timmy trips on the street and falls, breaking his leg. Now, did the 1% gravity increase necessarily cause the fall? No. Can we necessarily say that he broke his leg because of the increase, and absent that 1% he would have got away with only a scratch? No. But what we can do is look at the overall picture of all the trips and falls, and see if they're happening at higher rates than before. We can look at whether people are being hurt more when they fall. We can look at all the evidence and from it build a coherent picture that yes, the gravity increase is contributing to more injuries.

Smoking is similar. Would Churchill have suffered strokes if he had never been a smoker? Perhaps, perhaps not. Absent someone literally choking on a cigarette down their throat, we can't say that "it was cigarette 549,516 that killed that person". But we look at the evidence and we see that smokers have significantly increased rates of cancer, of emphysema, etc etc, and from that we can draw conclusions. Not every person who smokes needs to die in order to draw that conclusion. Statistics and science (not maths!) work in shades of grey - what we can say is that what we observe in experiments is staggeringly unlikely to happen due to pure chance.

Consider yourself rolling a six-sided die and recording the results. If you notice that one particular number is happening a lot more than others, you start to wonder whether the die might be loaded. There's nothing to prevent a fair die rolling 6 a hundred times in a row, but the chances are around 1 in 10^77 - in other words, if you rolled a die 100 times for every single atom in the entire universe, you'd only expect to roll straight 6s 1000 times. By comparison, 125,000,000 atoms would fit in the full stop at the end of this sentence. That is what statistics and science is about - showing that something is true by dint of it being false being staggeringly unlikely.
 

tony_mac

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There is no evidence that vaping is healthier than smoking, or that vaping is less unhealthy than smoking. It may well be true, but we can't say that as there is no evidence.
There is no evidence that smoking is healthier than eating Morning Glory apples, or that smoking is less unhealthy than eating Morning Glory apples. It may well be true, but we can't say that as there is no evidence.

That's using a very narrow (and frankly, wrong) definition of 'evidence'.

Actually, I think I need to change the tone of my reply...

Much of what you said is completely sensible, except that 'evidence' and 'absolute proof' are not the same thing. While the long-term risks of vaping are obviously not known, having a lot fewer known toxins, even with possibly some extras, is very likely to mean it is safer than smoking in the long term.
 
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HowardGWR

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I still see people trying to make points about the effects of vaping on the vapers or smoking on the smokers (I wish now I had never mentioned the ninety year old famous men who died; I was merely pointing out the factual nature of the posting from @Butts).

What is it that some of you cannot understand? We are discussing the effects of vaping in trains and on platforms on other pax. Can you not get that very simple point?
 

AM9

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There are several posts here defending the use of e-cigarettes as an aid to giving-up smoking. Well if that is a genuine aim then why shouldn't the use of e-cigarettes be the same as for tobacco smoking? If switching to e-cigarettes gives more opportunity to indulge, then they clearly won't really be kicking the habit, - it's just a convenient excuse.
 

Radedamer

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I still see people trying to make points about the effects of vaping on the vapers or smoking on the smokers (I wish now I had never mentioned the ninety year old famous men who died; I was merely pointing out the factual nature of the posting from @Butts).

What is it that some of you cannot understand? We are discussing the effects of vaping in trains and on platforms on other pax. Can you not get that very simple point?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There are several posts here defending the use of e-cigarettes as an aid to giving-up smoking. Well if that is a genuine aim then why shouldn't the use of e-cigarettes be the same as for tobacco smoking? If switching to e-cigarettes gives more opportunity to indulge, then they clearly won't really be kicking the habit, - it's just a convenient excuse.

Yes so much to both of these.
 

Bletchleyite

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There are several posts here defending the use of e-cigarettes as an aid to giving-up smoking. Well if that is a genuine aim then why shouldn't the use of e-cigarettes be the same as for tobacco smoking? If switching to e-cigarettes gives more opportunity to indulge, then they clearly won't really be kicking the habit, - it's just a convenient excuse.

But if e-cigarettes are found to be relatively harmless, why *should* people give them up, any more than they should give up coffee, which is a relatively harmless (some say beneficial) recreational drug as well.

I'm addicted to caffeine (I work in IT, I'd have a job not being). I am happy to admit this. It is not, so far as I know, causing me any health issues (if I found it was, I would most likely revisit it). I like the taste of coffee and tea, and the "rituals" surrounding their consumption. Why should I stop?
 
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TheNewNo2

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But if e-cigarettes are found to be relatively harmless, why *should* people give them up, any more than they should give up coffee, which is a relatively harmless (some say beneficial) recreational drug as well.

I'm addicted to caffeine (I work in IT, I'd have a job not being). I am happy to admit this. It is not, so far as I know, causing me any health issues (if I found it was, I would most likely revisit it). I like the taste of coffee and tea, and the "rituals" surrounding their consumption. Why should I stop?

No one's asking you to stop. But if you started pouring coffee you spat out down others' throats, they probably would.
 

Bletchleyite

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No one's asking you to stop. But if you started pouring coffee you spat out down others' throats, they probably would.

Indeed. But if I consume the coffee without doing so (or vape an e-cig without doing so) where is the problem? The post I replied to suggested smokers switching to e-cigs was a bad thing; I contend it is only a bad thing if e-cigs have a significant health disbenefit, otherwise as long as it is done considerately I don't see any problem with it at all.
 

WelshBluebird

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Indeed. But if I consume the coffee without doing so (or vape an e-cig without doing so) where is the problem?.

The difference is that (unless you do pour coffee down someone elses throat) you aren't forcing them to consume any coffee. Whereas with smoking and vaping, doing either in public generally does mean you are forcing other people to inhale the smoke / vapour.
 

The Ham

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But if e-cigarettes are found to be relatively harmless, why *should* people give them up, any more than they should give up coffee, which is a relatively harmless (some say beneficial) recreational drug as well.

I'm addicted to caffeine (I work in IT, I'd have a job not being). I am happy to admit this. It is not, so far as I know, causing me any health issues (if I found it was, I would most likely revisit it). I like the taste of coffee and tea, and the "rituals" surrounding their consumption. Why should I stop?

The problem is that until e-cigarettes are found to be relatively harmless people are nervous about them. Such evidence is unlikely to be forth coming until at least 30 years after their introduction. In the mean time people are going to be cautious about others using them in their proximity.

As an aside, it has been found following research that people who consume caffeine regularly are only as alert as those who do not consume caffeine. i.e. the caffeine creates withdrawal symptoms which appear like fatigue which are overcome (back to the natural baseline) by consuming caffeine. Therefore the perceived advantage of coffee is mostly down to addiction problems, unless only consumed infrequently.
 

Bletchleyite

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The problem is that until e-cigarettes are found to be relatively harmless people are nervous about them. Such evidence is unlikely to be forth coming until at least 30 years after their introduction. In the mean time people are going to be cautious about others using them in their proximity.

Yes, and I agree with the idea that they should be used outside as per regular cigarettes, if only because some may find the smell distasteful but also because that isn't certain. OTOH until that is proven I see no need for any restriction or campaign against their use in private places, in vehicles where children are not present, nor outside. Nor do I see any need for a "vice tax" until such time as a cost to the NHS is proven.

As an aside, it has been found following research that people who consume caffeine regularly are only as alert as those who do not consume caffeine. i.e. the caffeine creates withdrawal symptoms which appear like fatigue which are overcome (back to the natural baseline) by consuming caffeine. Therefore the perceived advantage of coffee is mostly down to addiction problems, unless only consumed infrequently.

I'm aware of that but other early studies have suggested other health gains e.g.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee#Health_effects

What doesn't seem to be established is any health related downside, unlike smoking traditional cigarettes. Only those with high blood pressure may have an issue because caffeine increases it a bit.

But that's not why I drink coffee, it's because I like the taste of it and have a mild addiction to it, as I said above. The point was more that other than the financial effect (which is low as I mostly drink it at home or in the office, where it is free or low-cost) there is no particular disadvantage to that addiction, unlike smoking, and some possible if not very well proven advantages.
 
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