Duties on TOC's to provide rail replacement services during engineering work

[TUC]

I've noticed several examples lately of TOCs not providing any replacement service (road or otherwise) for rail services not operating due to engineering work.

For example, the Fort William sleeper is not operating on several dates in October (see http://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/documents/10921_Sleeper_-_Sept_12.pdf ) Although a bus service will link some stations into the Fort William sleeper there are a number of stations where no services will be provided i.e. Westerton, Dalmuir, Helensburgh Upper,
Garelochhead, Arrochar & Tarbet, Ardlui, Crianlarich, Upper Tyndrum, Bridge
of Orchy, Rannoch and Corrour.

Simiilarly on a number of occeasions the 0445 Newcastle-Kings Cross has started at York with no replacement services for the Newcastle-York leg.

Both of these are examples where it is diffficult to see any alternatives for passengers if rail replacement services are not being provided.

What are the responsibliities for TOCs with regard to rail replacement and do they apply to every service?

 

[A0]

I've noticed several examples lately of TOCs not providing any replacement service (road or otherwise) for rail services not operating due to engineering work.

For example, the Fort William sleeper is not operating on several dates in October (see http://www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/files/documents/10921_Sleeper_-_Sept_12.pdf ) Although a bus service will link some stations into the Fort William sleeper there are a number of stations where no services will be provided i.e. Westerton, Dalmuir, Helensburgh Upper,
Garelochhead, Arrochar & Tarbet, Ardlui, Crianlarich, Upper Tyndrum, Bridge
of Orchy, Rannoch and Corrour.

Simiilarly on a number of occeasions the 0445 Newcastle-Kings Cross has started at York with no replacement services for the Newcastle-York leg.

Both of these are examples where it is diffficult to see any alternatives for passengers if rail replacement services are not being provided.

What are the responsibliities for TOCs with regard to rail replacement and do they apply to every service?

I can only assume in the case of the Scotrail one it is the practicality of getting a bus to some of those stations? And whether there is another alternative service / station close by?

 

[TUC]

Can anyone shed more light with regards to the question of the degree of duties upon TOCs to provide replacement services during engineering work?

 

[30907]

This seems to be regular EC practice. The next train after the 0445 Newcastle-York is 30 minutes later, so there is little point in a bus replacement leaving Newcastle at 0445.

Should there be one at (say) 0400 to get passengers to their destination at the original booked time, though?
I don't think it was routine practice in pre-privatisation days to start services early so that this would happen (someone will now correct me....):
I've looked at the oldest Engineering Works document I have (from 1959); in that, the service started up "as booked" with later arrival at destination in both directions.

I suppose something could be specified in a franchise agreement, but there would be cost implications there.

And what about the old "catch-all" clause that the company doesn't guarantee that trains will run in accordance with the timetable, or at all?

 

[Swirlz]

Can anyone shed more light with regards to the question of the degree of duties upon TOCs to provide replacement services during engineering work?

sorry new to the forum but have been reading up on conditions of carriage for tickets.

section 43 says they only have to help you get to your destination, during disruption that occurred because of something within their control, if it reasonably can.

if a station is remote or particularly hard to access or something then i'd say it would be unreasonable for them to provide replacement transport.

i'll leave it up to the experts on here to decide whether that's right though!

if they tell you about the engineering work before buying a ticket, I'd say you have no comeback at all as it is just a different timetable not disruption.

 

[TUC]

This seems to be regular EC practice. The next train after the 0445 Newcastle-York is 30 minutes later, so there is little point in a bus replacement leaving Newcastle at 0445.

Should there be one at (say) 0400 to get passengers to their destination at the original booked time, though?
I don't think it was routine practice in pre-privatisation days to start services early so that this would happen (someone will now correct me....):
I've looked at the oldest Engineering Works document I have (from 1959); in that, the service started up "as booked" with later arrival at destination in both directions.

I suppose something could be specified in a franchise agreement, but there would be cost implications there.

And what about the old "catch-all" clause that the company doesn't guarantee that trains will run in accordance with the timetable, or at all?

It is that connectional issue that is key to my mind. Customers at that time of morning are likely to be travelling because they need to be at their destination at at particular time.Therefore just leaving them to travel on the next train doesn't meet their needs but a bus departing earlier but getting to the destination on time might.

 

[wintonian]

It is that connectional issue that is key to my mind. Customers at that time of morning are likely to be travelling because they need to be at their destination at at particular time.Therefore just leaving them to travel on the next train doesn't meet their needs but a bus departing earlier but getting to the destination on time might.

I agree that is the need for most early travellers, hover as as been pointed out they only need to get you to your destination, they don't necessarily have to get you their on-time, however I think it's something they should be doing if practical to do so.

 

[northwichcat]

Technically should Northern have been operating one for the Stockport-Stalybridge service when the Denton line was closed off for a few weeks?

 

[tsr]

I can only assume in the case of the Scotrail one it is the practicality of getting a bus to some of those stations? And whether there is another alternative service / station close by?

Corrour would be pretty much impossible to serve by bus. It has a 10-mile access road that isn't even publicly accessible!

 

[TUC]

Corrour would be pretty much impossible to serve by bus. It has a 10-mile access road that isn't even publicly accessible!

At the risk of askkng a stupid question,how do people even get to it to use the regular service?

 

[Firesprite]

At the risk of askkng a stupid question,how do people even get to it to use the regular service?

It's mainly use by people staying at the Youth Hostel by the loch.

 

[wintonian]

At the risk of askkng a stupid question,how do people even get to it to use the regular service?

The same way you get to Berney Arms - walk.

 

[merlodlliw]

Not in the similar remote areas, VT will not be running a rail service to Wrexham from Chester during engineering when the service is cancelled from Euston , I know a bus station is across the road at Chester, but you have to pay.

This is the about 2020 in the evening, the excuse last time was there will be another train by ATW in an hour at 2121.(tough if you are on Chester station after the 1921 has left)

This was a service given to VT by ATW, who also tell us they have no responsibility to proved any other service.

 

[p123]

Corrour would be pretty much impossible to serve by bus. It has a 10-mile access road that isn't even publicly accessible!

How amazing would a rail replacement helicopter be?

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Technically should Northern have been operating one for the Stockport-Stalybridge service when the Denton line was closed off for a few weeks?

They should possibly have ran a parliamentary rail replacement service, surly?

 

[12CSVT]

For several Sundays there has been engineering works on the ECML south of Peterborough. East Coast trains which are normally timetabled to depart Kings Cross before 10:00 simply haven't run, with no replacement bus.

 

[TUC]

For several Sundays there has been engineering works on the ECML south of Peterborough. East Coast trains which are normally timetabled to depart Kings Cross before 10:00 simply haven't run, with no replacement bus.

That's a slightly different situation as presumably there are FCC services to fill the gap. In the examples I've cited there are no alternatives.

 

[jon0844]

When engineering work is planned far enough ahead, can't the TOC simply change the timetable so certain services aren't scheduled to run (or stop at the same stations). Thus no need for a bus.

 

[12CSVT]

That's a slightly different situation as presumably there are FCC services to fill the gap. In the examples I've cited there are no alternatives.

All lines were blocked. Nothing departed Kings Cross before 09:58, regardless of TOC. First southbound arrivals were sometime after 10:00.

 

[quarella]

So if I am reading this and other threads correctly. We will complain vehemently about everything to do with road rail replacement but if a TOC advertises it is not going to provide any from certain stations for planned work we will complain about that.

 

[Eagle]

When engineering work is planned far enough ahead, can't the TOC simply change the timetable so certain services aren't scheduled to run (or stop at the same stations). Thus no need for a bus.

Long-term engineering works in timetables is already a done thing (just flick through the Sunday section of any XC timetable to see that), although I don't think that they could get away with not providing buses even in this case as they still have to fulfil the various quanta of services required of them.