Dutch/Belgium High Speed (ghost) Line

[NSE]

I've been to Holland for the past three years (same destination and route), and always drive along a motorway that runs alongside a highspeed line for much of its way (pick it up on the Dutch side of Antwerp, and run with it until the approach to Rotterdam). I always keep an eye on it to see a train or two, but have never seen anything.
A really nice shiny modern station is on the route, along with a rather spectacular dive-under the motorway, and finally a huge bridge next to some local lines, which join together with a grade seperted junction near Rotterdam.
I was hoping to see a nice Thalys train or two but as I say, nothing yet.
Anyone know about this line at all? Any thoughts/comments appreciated

 

[jamesontheroad]

The HSL Zuid? There have been Thalys and Fyra services running since last year, although the pug-ugly Ansaldobreda V250 trainsets won't be in passenger operation until later this year.

 

[NSE]

Yeah thats the one, thanks for that, I've just never managed to catch a train down there. Thats quite a feet considering the hour I spend alongside it.
And yeah those new trains look very ugly, Although the Wikipedia page you gave says that Thalys should be a more common presence soon.

 

[tripleseis]

I've never seen a train on HS1 while driving down the M20 or M2, even though there's a regular service on that line. I guess I will eventually see something once DB start running trains to London.

 

[j0hn0]

You could also being seeing the Betuwe freight route which, depending on which motorway you are using, runs parallel to it for a while.

The way to distinguish is by the catenary. Betuwe has nice curved stanchions, whereas HSL Zuid has straight ones with oblique top sections.

Both routes were built more than 2 years before they opened and it will still be a while until the whole routes are fully utilised. Currently I believe only the Rotterdam - Schiphol route is open and still not approved for true HSTs at the mo.

The dutch really love their red tape, but they often tend to sort it out at the end once the thing is built. Maybe the English should start looking into that for HS2

 

[A60K]

I've never seen a train on HS1 while driving down the M20 or M2, even though there's a regular service on that line. I guess I will eventually see something once DB start running trains to London.

Given the way the line is sometimes hidden from the roads, and the speed of trains, it's probably not surprising. I doubt a handful of DB trains will make a difference!

 

[NSE]

Ahh it might well be the freight line, which is odd as it does run through a station. But thanks for the information

As for Db running trains into London, its the first I've heard, when will it start? I'll Wiki it now, although not the most reliable source for information as we know :L

 

[A60K]

It's all speculation at the moment, but there are some firm rumours to go on if that makes sense!

2012 is probably the earliest that DB would start services to London. If it happens, it would most likely be a pair of ICE 3 sets (they have some on order at the moment) running Dortmund/Frankfurt to Cologne, joining there and then running to Brussels via London. Depending on security requirements though, it may just be Cologne to London with a change being required from elsewhere.

Perhaps three return journeys a day might be possible, and I would expect that some arrangement would be worked out with Eurostar to reduce their Brussels service by one or two trains a day. The design and operation of the ICE 3 still needs to be approved by the Channel Tunnel IGC for passage through the tunnel, but that is unlikely to be a major problem.

 

[jopsuk]

The neccesary paperwork to allow non-divisable trains to work through the tunnel is being processed, as part of the requirement to open up the line to other operators. I think it has been realised that the idea (that you could evacuate half the train onto the other half, and then drive the working half out) is not required and has never even been attempted during any of the incidents that have occured.

 

[gordonthemoron]

considering the existing large gaps in the London-Brussels timetable, there's at least one gap of 3 hours, I'd rather not see any further reduction.

 

[j0hn0]

The neccesary paperwork to allow non-divisable trains to work through the tunnel is being processed, as part of the requirement to open up the line to other operators. I think it has been realised that the idea (that you could evacuate half the train onto the other half, and then drive the working half out) is not required and has never even been attempted during any of the incidents that have occured.

Given that this facilitated specific rolling stock such as the 373s, does anyone else think that this was deliberately introduced to ensure the profits of Eurostar?

Sure there was a lot of money to be made back after the initial investment in the building of the tunnel, but not sure how much of that was tied to Eurostar

 

[jopsuk]

Not so sure on that- the opening up to other companies is a requirement of an EU initative to promote cross-border rail travel on high-speed lines. Perhaps the tunnel management have been a little tardy in relaxing the rules, but Eurotunel and Eurostar are wholly seperate companies.

 

[shinkansen1966]

It's all speculation at the moment, but there are some firm rumours to go on if that makes sense!

Perhaps three return journeys a day might be possible, and I would expect that some arrangement would be worked out with Eurostar to reduce their Brussels service by one or two trains a day. The design and operation of the ICE 3 still needs to be approved by the Channel Tunnel IGC for passage through the tunnel, but that is unlikely to be a major problem.

What I think is just as likely is for DB to buy a sizeable stake in Eurostar. They can then aligh the eurostar timetable with DB ICE service in and out of Brussels, and promote lots of through fares from London to Germany. Allowing for a 20 min connection at Brussels, Cologne is only 4 hr 20 mins away and Frankfurt 5 hrs 20 min away.

I know a through ICE service from St Pancras to Cologne is appealing, the Eurostar stake would be easier. And gets around the security and customs problems.

I'd like also like to see more through fares from London to the Netherlands. Has anyone here tried to book a through tickets between London and Amsterdam on Eurostar ?

 

[j0hn0]

The thing is, if a train is to come from Cologne or Frankfurt then it has to pass through Aachen, Liege and Brussels.
I would like to know how they plan on doing the baggage scanning and passport checking. Will passengers have to get off and back on again in Brussels?

Wouldn't any participating destination along that route then have to have eurostar type check in facilities?

All seems a bit fo a faff to me

 

[A60K]

What I think is just as likely is for DB to buy a sizeable stake in Eurostar. They can then aligh the eurostar timetable with DB ICE service in and out of Brussels, and promote lots of through fares from London to Germany.

That certainly is a possibility - perhaps taking the long term view even with Thalys being incorporated in a new high speed company, covering all 'figure of 8' international services between any pair of London, Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam and Cologne and perhaps being owned 40/40/10/10 by SNCF/DB/SNCB/NS or with other shareholders as well. Interesting times ahead!

DB do already offer London to Germany fares including any Eurostar service to Brussels and then ICE travel from Brussels - €49 single to anywhere in Germany (or v.v.).

 

[gordonthemoron]

the minimum fare in 2nd class appears to have gone up to €55

 

[A60K]

Given that this facilitated specific rolling stock such as the 373s, does anyone else think that this was deliberately introduced to ensure the profits of Eurostar?

Sure there was a lot of money to be made back after the initial investment in the building of the tunnel, but not sure how much of that was tied to Eurostar

I don't think it was to ensure the profits of Eurostar, simply because that's what the safety experts felt was necessary and the 373s were therefore built to meet those requirements.

Neither the Eurostar or Eurotunnel is anywhere near being a truly profitable company by any sane financial definition of the word. The Channel Tunnel and associated infrastructure and services are loss-making enterprises on a huge scale, when you take into account capital investment, debt servicing, operating costs, renewals, government 'subsidy' and everything else.

 

[j0hn0]

I don't think it was to ensure the profits of Eurostar, simply because that's what the safety experts felt was necessary and the 373s were therefore built to meet those requirements.

Neither the Eurostar or Eurotunnel is anywhere near being a truly profitable company by any sane financial definition of the word. The Channel Tunnel and associated infrastructure and services are loss-making enterprises on a huge scale, when you take into account capital investment, debt servicing, operating costs, renewals, government 'subsidy' and everything else.

sure thing, but what I mean is that when it was all built, access fees from Eurostar would've been all tied into the deal. I am probably mistaken but wasn't Eurotunnel close to breaking even soon?

I just think it was all tied into the deal in terms of structuring maximum profitability and guaranteed payback. Up until the de-regulation of course.

So is Eurotunnel becoming open-access?

 

[EWS 58038]

To stay on the HSL-Zuid subject: There is a hourly Amsterdam-Rotterdam service running at 160km'h which is loco hauled. Infact it's the only domestic locomotive hauled domestic service in the country. Thalys services run 7 return legs a day. Between Schiphol and Rottertdam at 160 and between Rotterdam and Antwerp at 300 km'h. Furthermore there is a local service between Antwerp and Noorderkempen once hourly.

The Amsterdam-Rotterdam service is under the FYRA brand by NSHispeed. Trains run completley empty as no-one is preparedto pay a €7,50 suplement per single for just a 20 minutes fastee journey.

 

[j0hn0]

The Amsterdam-Rotterdam service is under the FYRA brand by NSHispeed. Trains run completley empty as no-one is preparedto pay a €7,50 suplement per single for just a 20 minutes fastee journey.

who would?

HSL Zuid doesnt start until after Schiphol and so any supplement will be a ripoff until the fast trains start to run. Considering the stock they use, I wouldnt pay it either. I would take a ViRM via Leiden over the benelux stock 8 days a week

I actually do not see the local "Fyra" service taking off at all. For me, having lived there, Holland is all about the tourist dollar/pound/euro and getting people in to spend it.

Dutch people don't give a damn about getting anywhere quicker, HSL Zuid is about bringing in more tourists.

 

[EWS 58038]

Well for me as a railwaymen it's a nice opportunaty for a daytrip to paris as we do have staff fares on the Thalys service. And free transport on the FYRA will probably include the section between the royal border and Antwerp Central. Even if we would have to pay for that section of the line (which I doubt) the standard return fare would probably be adound €20 or even less.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I'd like also like to see more through fares from London to the Netherlands. Has anyone here tried to book a through tickets between London and Amsterdam on Eurostar ?

Yes, a couple of times, but never online because the only fares available there are to major cities on the more expensive Thalys connections. The £15 Any-Dutch-station-from-Brussels can only be purchased over the phone, and offers much better flexibility and value (basically any onwards travel for 24hrs after your Eurostar's arrival in Brussels and vice versa on the return).

 

[Oscar]

I'd like also like to see more through fares from London to the Netherlands. Has anyone here tried to book a through tickets between London and Amsterdam on Eurostar ?

You also seem to be able to buy London - Amsterdam through tickets from NS Hispeed from 50€ each way but it still works more expensive than the Any Dutch Station add-on. You also have to buy two singles in separate bookings as it charges nearly 300€ for a return!

 

[j0hn0]

You also seem to be able to buy London - Amsterdam through tickets from NS Hispeed from 50€ each way but it still works more expensive than the Any Dutch Station add-on. You also have to buy two singles in separate bookings as it charges nearly 300€ for a return!

You cannot book through NSHispeed unless you live in the Netherlands.

You can see the prices but once you put in your address and submit, thats it.

 

[gordonthemoron]

You cannot book through NSHispeed unless you live in the Netherlands.

You can see the prices but once you put in your address and submit, thats it.

NS obviously haven't got the hang of this new fangled internet have they :roll:, unlike DB

Mind you, most train companies in the UK and elsewhere in Europe are equally crap

 

[j0hn0]

NS obviously haven't got the hang of this new fangled internet have they :roll:, unlike DB

Mind you, most train companies in the UK and elsewhere in Europe are equally crap

or running "hispeed" trains