Dustbins on stations

[Vulcan]

A few simple thoughts on the matter really, that hopefully someone with some influence might see and take note of.

Moan 1

Why is the placement of litter bins on railway stations to irregular? For example, Huddersfield has no bins, yet Deighton, Brighouse, Halifax do, and again Bradford insterchange doesn't? Why is Huddersfield deemed more of a likely terrorist target then Halifax?

Moan 2

When you have litter at a station with no bins, you are told to 'just put it down somewhere and the cleaners will pick it up'. Why is this not a security risk? Although I'm no expert on the matter, I would have thought it possible to hide a device in (for example) one of those Mcdonalds paper bags they give out.

Moan 3

When there is a bin, why is it one of those crappy looking clear plastic bags hung from a ring that flaps about in the wind instead of a proper metal dusbin or similar? Again, a bomb could be hidden inside a paper bag and placed in one of these bins, so there is no actual gain from having them in this style.

Any ideas anyone?

 

[northwichcat]

Manchester Piccadilly has no bins and it looks stupid as the cleaners almost finish up being butlers.

Two IRA bombs in Warrington have been the only incident I've heard about where a dustbin has been used to hide a bomb. One thing I remember when the Arndale centre was bombed is the pictures showed a perfectly intact post box surrounded by ruins, so we could have red pillar box bins

 

[leewoods60019]

A few simple thoughts on the matter really, that hopefully someone with some influence might see and take note of.

Moan 1

Why is the placement of litter bins on railway stations to irregular? For example, Huddersfield has no bins, yet Deighton, Brighouse, Halifax do, and again Bradford insterchange doesn't? Why is Huddersfield deemed more of a likely terrorist target then Halifax?

Moan 2

When you have litter at a station with no bins, you are told to 'just put it down somewhere and the cleaners will pick it up'. Why is this not a security risk? Although I'm no expert on the matter, I would have thought it possible to hide a device in (for example) one of those Mcdonalds paper bags they give out.

Moan 3

When there is a bin, why is it one of those crappy looking clear plastic bags hung from a ring that flaps about in the wind instead of a proper metal dusbin or similar? Again, a bomb could be hidden inside a paper bag and placed in one of these bins, so there is no actual gain from having them in this style.

Any ideas anyone?

Huddersfield served 3.7 million passengers last year and Halifax been only 1.5 million. Huddersfield has trains every 15 mins to many locations such as liverpool, manchester, york, leeds, newcastle, middlesbrough, hull, durham, darlington, northallerton and I could go on, Halifax on the other hand is a less served station and there less likely to be hit by terrorists.

Clear plastic backs are to see through to spot devices, although could be hidden in a bag, and generally might not be seen. Bombs are heavy I'm guessing? so possible bomb could put the weight down on the bag but I wouldn't be sure about that. I hope some of this will help you answer your questions

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

I think you'll find that stations come under the scrutiny of TransSec.

 

[Vulcan]

Huddersfield served 3.7 million passengers last year and Halifax been only 1.5 million. Huddersfield has trains every 15 mins to many locations such as liverpool, manchester, york, leeds, newcastle, middlesbrough, hull, durham, darlington, northallerton and I could go on, Halifax on the other hand is a less served station and there less likely to be hit by terrorists.

Clear plastic backs are to see through to spot devices, although could be hidden in a bag, and generally might not be seen. Bombs are heavy I'm guessing? so possible bomb could put the weight down on the bag but I wouldn't be sure about that. I hope some of this will help you answer your questions

I'm trying to think of a more major station that does have litter bins.
Shipley does, and that has high numbers of commuter traffic through every day, and trains in one direction or another and short intervals. Perhaps not as busy as Hudds, but even so. I don't think the size of the station relates to the presence of dustbins. Another good one is Carnforth, where there is a plastic bag type bin on platform 2, heading for Leeds / Cumbrian coast, yet no bins at all on platform 1 heading for Lancaster.

Also, the idea that if you can see the rubbish in the bin, you can spot a bomb is a load of rubbish itself. Bombs are not a giant black metal objects with a fuse on the top and 'Acme' written on them, as they are portrayed in many a Loony Tunes cartoon. (as far as I know, but I'm not expert on bombs.)

 

[A60K]

Two IRA bombs in Warrington have been the only incident I've heard about where a dustbin has been used to hide a bomb.

I'm sure that there were a spate of litter bin IRA bombs on railway stations in the late 80s/early 90s, and that was what caused their removal. Victoria, Paddington and somewhere on the Underground as well?

 

[brianthegiant]

I recall being at Dyfi Junction station, shortly after the 7/7 bombings, and an Arriva guy got off a train with a cordless drill and removed the bin. All a bit silly when you consider that Dyfi Junction it is one of the most inaccessible stations in wales with a mile or so of locked track to the nearest public road. ie hardly a target for a terrorist after column inches...I've no doubt they were just following policy..blah..

The thing really missing from this debate is why are we incapable of providing recycling bins on stations. since most stations in France, Belgium, Germany etc, have them, ICEs even have recycling bins onboard. Ironic, in a small densely populated country like Britain which is running out of landfill sites.

 

[Snapper]

Also, the idea that if you can see the rubbish in the bin, you can spot a bomb is a load of rubbish itself. Bombs are not a giant black metal objects with a fuse on the top and 'Acme' written on them, as they are portrayed in many a Loony Tunes cartoon. (as far as I know, but I'm not expert on bombs.)

The point about solid rubbish bins is that if a bomb is placed in them they become part of the bomb as they then provide the shrapnel.

Not a problem you have with plastic bags.

There's also that fact that a heavy object in a plastic bag is more obvious as it stretches the bag.

 

[Wyvern]

In order to get litter receptacles back at Belper it was necessary to apply for a special dispensation.

Apart from anything else, if someone was going to plant a bomb, they'd have put it in the main street a few yards away

 

[nedchester]

Manchester Piccadilly has no bins and it looks stupid as the cleaners almost finish up being butlers.

Two IRA bombs in Warrington have been the only incident I've heard about where a dustbin has been used to hide a bomb. One thing I remember when the Arndale centre was bombed is the pictures showed a perfectly intact post box surrounded by ruins, so we could have red pillar box bins

and guess what the bins in Warrington Town centre are still there.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

Just think of the consequences if you were to put a small device in a bin on a platform like Didcot Parkway in the rush-hour & detonate it remotely as a train came in or as one passed through at high speed!

 

[nedchester]

The point about solid rubbish bins is that if a bomb is placed in them they become part of the bomb as they then provide the shrapnel.

Not a problem you have with plastic bags.

There's also that fact that a heavy object in a plastic bag is more obvious as it stretches the bag.

So only ban bins on stations. Why not town centres? See my comment above about Warrington.

It's all about arse covering.

The same applies to left luggage lockers, just makes things inconvenient.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think you'll find that stations come under the scrutiny of TransSec.

Maybe one of the cuts that might happen under the new government......?

 

[EM2]

The point about solid rubbish bins is that if a bomb is placed in them they become part of the bomb as they then provide the shrapnel.

Not a problem you have with plastic bags.

There's also that fact that a heavy object in a plastic bag is more obvious as it stretches the bag.

Also, if there is an alert, staff actually have to search the bin.
Many modern IEDs have a tilt switch, so if it gets disturbed while someone is rummaging in the bin, it detonates.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The same applies to left luggage lockers, just makes things inconvenient.

No, it makes things safer.

 

[nedchester]

Also, if there is an alert, staff actually have to search the bin.
Many modern IEDs have a tilt switch, so if it gets disturbed while someone is rummaging in the bin, it detonates.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, it makes things safer.

So why do they have them in Warrington Town centre??? Go on explain that one.

Maybe I'd better not go out of my front door tomorrow in case I case I fall over, crash my car etc etc.

Let's face it if a terrorist wants to go to a city centre station tomorrow morning with a rucksack full of explosives then there is little you or I can do about it. Bins or no bins. Left luggage lockers or not.

 

[merlodlliw]

Bit off subject, but a brand new shopping etc mall was opened here in Wrexham
two years ago, the security guards warned anyone with a camera not to use it on opening day for security reasons, yet the site was open to the public to walk through for a week previous.

As for the thread rubbish bins removed at Dyffi Junction, sounds about right as Cardiff as a double FF, wonder how many caught a train at Dyffi Junc today,perhaps one,

 

[Old Timer]

When the IRA started to move its operations against the Mainland UK as opposed to NI, they started a programme of bomb threats against the Railway in particular because it not only caused considerable disruption but also gained publicity without the "risk".

One of the problesm was the need to search anywhere where a device could be hidden, and then allied to that was the possibility that the bomb would be equipped with an anti-handling device targetted towards the Army bomb disposal teams.

This made it very difficult at times to get a quick search undertaken and in order to reduce this problem, the Home Office requested that BR remove litter bins from public areas. This in theory also had the simple effect of making something "stand-out".

In the case of Underground stations, following the Kings Cross fire the decision was taken to seal and remove all bins, with enhanced cleaning and litter collection.

Following on from improvements to the security situation in NI, bins were installed again at some but not all stations.

I would have said that in the current security climate, litter bins would not be the weapon of choice. The IRA was primarily engaged in targetting property, causing as much disruption to normal life, and attacking the military rather than the general population, hence the usual warnings, although there were cases where bombs detonated before a warning had been given, or a short time after.

They found this to be a low cost, low risk mode of operation, which had the upside of not causing large loss of life. Their battle was Political not religious.

In the current climate there is no use of bins as long as there is always someone quite happy to strap explosives to themselves and sacrifice themselves and everyone else in range, in the name of a sick Religious aim.

 

[nedchester]

When the IRA started to move its operations against the Mainland UK as opposed to NI, they started a programme of bomb threats against the Railway in particular because it not only caused considerable disruption but also gained publicity without the "risk".

One of the problesm was the need to search anywhere where a device could be hidden, and then allied to that was the possibility that the bomb would be equipped with an anti-handling device targetted towards the Army bomb disposal teams.

This made it very difficult at times to get a quick search undertaken and in order to reduce this problem, the Home Office requested that BR remove litter bins from public areas. This in theory also had the simple effect of making something "stand-out".

In the case of Underground stations, following the Kings Cross fire the decision was taken to seal and remove all bins, with enhanced cleaning and litter collection.

Following on from improvements to the security situation in NI, bins were installed again at some but not all stations.

I would have said that in the current security climate, litter bins would not be the weapon of choice. The IRA was primarily engaged in targetting property, causing as much disruption to normal life, and attacking the military rather than the general population, hence the usual warnings, although there were cases where bombs detonated before a warning had been given, or a short time after.

They found this to be a low cost, low risk mode of operation, which had the upside of not causing large loss of life. Their battle was Political not religious.

In the current climate there is no use of bins as long as there is always someone quite happy to strap explosives to themselves and sacrifice themselves and everyone else in range, in the name of a sick Religious aim.

Exactly.

Interestingly in the case of the Warrington bombs a warning was given.

Apparently the IRA rang the Samaritans in Warrington to inform them of a bomb in the town centre. Unfortunately that Saturday the Samaritans (I think) telephone number was diverted to Liverpool due to short staff. Liverpool town centre was evacuated but Warrington was not. Sadly two people lost their lives as a result.

 

[Vulcan]

The point about solid rubbish bins is that if a bomb is placed in them they become part of the bomb as they then provide the shrapnel.

Not a problem you have with plastic bags.

There's also that fact that a heavy object in a plastic bag is more obvious as it stretches the bag.

I maintain that its a load of rubbish (no pun intended) especially as trains tend to have none see-through metal bins.

Also, I think there are some TPE recycling bins at dewsbury, but why theyre not everywhere (BTW, thats TPE branded and owned recycling bins, not bins for recycling TPEs)

 

[Old Timer]

I remember being involved in searching trains and stations in the 1970s and 80s.

One of the things that made it slightly less worrying, was the thought that most probably it would be a false warning intended to maximise disruption, but that in the event of something being found, it would be so very obvious, and was not intended to kill or maim (at least us).

Most of the time anything which was found was able to be defused.

Sadly that is not the case today and one has to live with the thought that an attack will be unannounced and intended to maximise death and destruction.

 

[EM2]

So why do they have them in Warrington Town centre??? Go on explain that one.

Maybe I'd better not go out of my front door tomorrow in case I case I fall over, crash my car etc etc.

Let's face it if a terrorist wants to go to a city centre station tomorrow morning with a rucksack full of explosives then there is little you or I can do about it. Bins or no bins. Left luggage lockers or not.

In a town centre, you can never be sure how many people will be around at any time. In a station, you can almost guarantee that it would be absolutely packed at certain times and as OT says, any device detonated there is going to cause maximum disruption.
And as for being run over etc, you minimise that risk yourself, by being vigilant, by looking out for cars or loose paving slabs.
You're quite right. But are you saying that we shouldn't reduce risk as much as possible?
If you're going to go down that route, you may as well say there's no point having security screening at airports.

 

[Old Timer]

In fairness to Nedchester I think he is saying that the intent and the means of an attack have changed since the IRA.

In that I believe he is correct.

The IRA fought a "military" war to a degree rather than a civillian war. The current threat is a wholly civillian one.

 

[Mojo]

I am sure that during the IRA campaign the City of London had bomb proof bins designed? I am sure some of these would be more appropriate at certain locations.

 

[nedchester]

In a town centre, you can never be sure how many people will be around at any time. In a station, you can almost guarantee that it would be absolutely packed at certain times and as OT says, any device detonated there is going to cause maximum disruption.
And as for being run over etc, you minimise that risk yourself, by being vigilant, by looking out for cars or loose paving slabs.
You're quite right. But are you saying that we shouldn't reduce risk as much as possible?
If you're going to go down that route, you may as well say there's no point having security screening at airports.

Try most town centres at Christmas. Get your bomb to be activated by mobile phone. Town centre gets crowded, terrorist makes the call, job done!!

I am not saying we shouldn't be aware of security at stations and airports but taking away bins and left luggage facilities is just not reasonable. Part of the problem is that many managers will not put the bins back because of the perceived risk of getting 'sued' in the minute chance of something happening.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In fairness to Nedchester I think he is saying that the intent and the means of an attack have changed since the IRA.

In that I believe he is correct.

The IRA fought a "military" war to a degree rather than a civillian war. The current threat is a wholly civillian one.

That is indeed what I am saying. The threat is very different. Should we ban all people with rucksacks??????

 

[Old Timer]

I am sure that during the IRA campaign the City of London had bomb proof bins designed? I am sure some of these would be more appropriate at certain locations.

Whatever the situation, bins when provided will fill up quickly as most people do try to use them.

This requires sufficient staff to empty them, and of course remove the rubbish.

Remember that with the removal of bins, there was a reduction in the amount of rubbish bins we needed and thus we were able to realise savings in that manner. In the case of unmanned stations, the need to send someone there on a regular basis was removed overnight, and in some areas was to allow the removal of posts when they became unfilled.

 

[A60K]

I am sure that during the IRA campaign the City of London had bomb proof bins designed? I am sure some of these would be more appropriate at certain locations.

I think these are pretty expensive - ISTR around £1000 per unit. They were designed to hold together rather than shattering if a bomb detonates inside, meaning you basically get fountain of rubbish shooting upwards and a twisted, but still intact, bin.

 

[Vulcan]

Another point....

Using Huddersfield as an example again, there are loads of metal litter bins in the town centre, which is all very good. But as said previously, there are none in the station. I don't think there is ever the situation where there is more people in the railway station then there are around the pedestrianised shopping streets.
There is also litter bins in the bus station, and again, that is often more full of people then the railway station, especially around rush hour.

 

[cuccir]

Moan 2

When you have litter at a station with no bins, you are told to 'just put it down somewhere and the cleaners will pick it up'. Why is this not a security risk? Although I'm no expert on the matter, I would have thought it possible to hide a device in (for example) one of those Mcdonalds paper bags they give out.

Any ideas anyone?

I was teaching some students doing a small research project on security in city centres. They chose Glasgow railway station as one of their sites and one thing that they found was that cleaners are being used (perhaps unofficially) as front line 'early eyes' security staff. They patrol regularly and know the station well so know when something is out of place. One of their tasks is to look for suspicious packages etc. and notify someone in security. If cleaners pick up a Mcconads bag and it's heavier than usual, then they'll know something dodgy is going on.

 

[Vulcan]

Yes, that may be the case at a large station like Glasgow, which are manned by cleaners all the time, but (picking on poor old Huddersfield again here) There are no bins, and in the evenings and overnight no cleaners (or many other staff for that matter).

 

[jon0844]

Bombs are heavy I'm guessing? so possible bomb could put the weight down on the bag but I wouldn't be sure about that. I hope some of this will help you answer your questions

Are they heavy? The clear bags they use are quite strong, as are the holders - and they've got to be designed to take the weight of being filled up with all sorts of things. So, I'd say that a bomb put in a McDonald's bag (other fast food options are available!) would be just fine.

And at a station without a bin, leaving said bag on the floor - which can now be put in a more advantageous position than where a bin might be. Now you've up against the clock in terms of how likely it is the bag will be picked up as rubbish.

Like the recent shootings in Cumbria, I am of the opinion that there's not much you can do to stop someone if they're determined enough.

The plus side of the clear bags is knowing when the bags are full. I see no reason for them not to be put in at all stations, and I doubt a terrorist will only want to bomb a busy station. I guess it's down to whether they're after killing or injuring as many people as possible, or causing as much disruption as possible (in which case, a smaller station at a critical point of a railway might be better).

 

[Greenback]

Terrorists want to cause as much disruption and fear as they can. Any terrorist attack in the Uk will receive maximum publicity all around the world, so if they want to make a splash they can bomb anywhere.

Any terrorist must be thrilled that as soon as they attack a particular target, governments go into panic mode and introduce all sorts of new security measures, most of which are far too late and pretty pointless as terrorists will then just go after another high profile target, which has lower security. Meanwhile the public is incovenienced, and occasionally worse, all in the name of security.

We cannot stop bombs by these 'security measures'. We are playing into terrorists hands by disrupting our normal lives as this is exactly what they want.