Dumfries to Stranraer rail route return among transport options

[backontrack]

Here's a map of the potential transport network in D&G. New stations are large, railways are blue and bus routes are red.

Things could be a little like this:

1tph Dumfries-Annan-Eastriggs-Gretna Green-Carlisle-stations to Newcastle Central
1tph Glasgow Central-Barrhead-Stewarton-Kilmarnock-Auchinleck-New Cumnock-Kirkconnel-Sanquhar-Thornhill-Dumfries-Annan-Eastriggs-Gretna Green-Carlisle
1tph Glasgow Central-Barrhead-Dunlop-Stewarton-Kilmaurs-Kilmarnock-Hurlford-Mauchline-Cumnock-New Cumnock
1tph Glasgow Central-Paisley Gilmour Street-Kilwinning-Irvine-Troon-Prestwick International Airport-Prestwick Town-Ayr-Alloway-Maybole-Girvan
1tp2h Glasgow Central-Paisley Gilmour Street-Irvine-Troon-Prestwick International Airport-Ayr-Alloway-Maybole-Girvan-Pinwherry-Barrhill-Dunragit-Stranraer Central
1tp2h Kilmarnock-Troon-Prestwick International Airport-Prestwick Town-Newton on Ayr-Ayr-Alloway-Maybole-Girvan-Pinwherry-Barrhill-Dunragit-Stranraer Central
2tpd Carlisle-Gretna Green-Eastriggs-Annan-Dumfries-Thornhill-Sanquhar-Kirkconnel-New Cumnock-Cumnock-Auchinleck-Mauchline-Ayr-Alloway-Maybole-Girvan-Pinwherry-Barrhill-Dunragit-Stranraer Central

Glasgow-Girvan: 1tph
Glasgow-Stranraer: 1tp2h
Ayr-Stranraer: 1tph, occasional extras
Ayr-Girvan: 2tph
Dumfries-Carlisle: 2tph, occasional extras
most stations between Kilmarnock and Dumfries non-inclusive: 1tph in each direction, occasional extras (New Cumnock gets 2tph + occasional extras)

Bus Connections
Ayr & Girvan: services to Kirkoswald, Ballantrae and Cairnryan Ferry Port
Pinwherry: services to Barrhill Village, Newton Stewart and central Galloway
Dunragit: services to Glenluce, Wigtown and the Isle of Whithorn
Stranraer: services to Portpatrick
Thornhill: services to Moniaive
Dumfries: services to Dalbeattie, Castle Douglas and Kirkcudbright

 

[Clansman]

In the draft appraisal, it briefly mentions an oppertunity to build a link from Dumfries to Lockerbie to/from the south of both towns. I really think this has great potential going forward and if anything, trumps Dumfries-Stranraer by a lot. Of all the rail improvements, it's one of the most worthy ones of being added in blue to the map.

 

[CaledonianBlue]

Only way a Dumfries-Stranraer alignment makes any kind of sense is as part of an Irish Sea crossing of some description.

I've been reading too many speculative and sleeper threads but bear with me. Would there be any market for some sort of a train ferry between Stranraer and Larne? If so you could run a sleeper train on to it? So you could have London to Belfast, also day trains Manchester to Dublin, Glasgow to Cork, etc.

My train of thought was actually to think how to make better use of the Stranraer, and its isolation from points east and south (it used to have direct trains to London including sleepers, even after having to go all the way north via Ayr). And I was thinking, well, that kind of long loop doesn't matter if you're on an overnight sleeper. But it is inconvenient to have to break the journey at Stranraer - but what if the train continued onto a ferry?

OK, at least you could start with at least having properly aligned services (trains connecting with ships) and gradually introduce new train services, then sleeper, then train ferry (via reinstated Cairnryan link if necessary), eventually direct Dumfries link, etc.

It may be pie in the sky but when you compare the cost and difficulty of a bridge or tunnel it may not be so crazy.

The political will could be there - as per bridge - for those wishing stronger ties between the two islands, whether helping strengthen national or international bonds, London-Dublin, Edinburgh-Dublin, Paris/Brussels-Dublin (sleep through the British part, wake up in Ireland...)

 

[Elwyn]

You would have to re-gauge either the train or the Irish Rail network, since Irish trains use 5 foot 3.

 

[randyrippley]

I've been reading too many speculative and sleeper threads but bear with me. Would there be any market for some sort of a train ferry between Stranraer and Larne? If so you could run a sleeper train on to it? So you could have London to Belfast, also day trains Manchester to Dublin, Glasgow to Cork, etc.

My train of thought was actually to think how to make better use of the Stranraer, and its isolation from points east and south (it used to have direct trains to London including sleepers, even after having to go all the way north via Ayr). And I was thinking, well, that kind of long loop doesn't matter if you're on an overnight sleeper. But it is inconvenient to have to break the journey at Stranraer - but what if the train continued onto a ferry?

OK, at least you could start with at least having properly aligned services (trains connecting with ships) and gradually introduce new train services, then sleeper, then train ferry (via reinstated Cairnryan link if necessary), eventually direct Dumfries link, etc.

It may be pie in the sky but when you compare the cost and difficulty of a bridge or tunnel it may not be so crazy.

The political will could be there - as per bridge - for those wishing stronger ties between the two islands, whether helping strengthen national or international bonds, London-Dublin, Edinburgh-Dublin, Paris/Brussels-Dublin (sleep through the British part, wake up in Ireland...)

Ferries make their money from freight - which means trucks, mainly unaccompanied. Putting a sleeper train on the ferry is the equivalent of replacing cargo volume with empty air. You can't generate the same cash with a few passengers as you can with the displaced trucks.

Besides which much Irish sea ferry traffic is freight only, with the ships restricted to just twelve passengers due to the presence of hazardous cargo

 

[CaledonianBlue]

You would have to re-gauge either the train or the Irish Rail network, since Irish trains use 5 foot 3.

Yes, good point. So, need a bit of a technical fix then. If there's a will there's a way.
For Ireland it would be about connectivity to Britain and ultimately the continent - no small matter.
The other crossing options - rail bridge or tunnel - would face the same issue.

 

[CaledonianBlue]

Ferries make their money from freight - which means trucks, mainly unaccompanied. Putting a sleeper train on the ferry is the equivalent of replacing cargo volume with empty air. You can't generate the same cash with a few passengers as you can with the displaced trucks.

OK, so what about freight trains displacing trucks?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

OK, so what about freight trains displacing trucks?

Regrettably the cost base is much higher for a shunting engine and so on , as opposed to a simple internal dock lorry (unlicensed) ...manned by a flexible port worker who does other things.

One of the reasons why the passenger "Night Ferry" came off , - and as did the UK - Dunkerque train ferries (port costs) - and note also in another thread the impending end of the German to Denmark train ferries.

Train ferries made sense (particularly for perishable and high value goods) , before the late 20thC explosion in road haulage capability. I used to act as relief manager for Harwich Port in BR days and worked extensively in Railfreight (and have made comment previously on Speedlink and Automotive traffics to Stranraer)

 

[randyrippley]

OK, so what about freight trains displacing trucks?

First build a national railfreight infrastructure.........without that there's no freight trains to put on the ferry
And of course you have the gauge problem

 

[HSTEd]

Talgo was supposedly working on a gauge changing freight wagon at some point.

But otherwise the simple answer is a railfreight depot on the Irish end of the bridge and use gauge changing trains for passengers.

But the only way a bridge would ever become even halfway viable is with a drive through connection anyway.

 

[CaledonianBlue]

First build a national railfreight infrastructure.........without that there's no freight trains to put on the ferry
And of course you have the gauge problem

Yes I take your point, it needs to be part of a bigger venture, though I'd be thinking (speculating) here of the international railfreight infrastructure - linking Ireland/UK/EU.

 

[randyrippley]

There is a technical reason why it may not be possible : I suspect the tidal range in the Irish Sea is too high for a railway linkspan. You'd need to bring the ship into a floating harbour for level access, and that would restrict you to the Mersey and Barrow

 

[Indigo Soup]

Besides which much Irish sea ferry traffic is freight only, with the ships restricted to just twelve passengers due to the presence of hazardous cargo

It isn't so much hazardous cargo that gives you the 12-passenger restriction - although it can be a factor - as the fact that once you carry thirteen passengers you're regulated as a passenger ship. That brings much more stringent requirements, which no freight operator wants to deal with if they can possibly avoid it!

 

[HSTEd]

There is a technical reason why it may not be possible : I suspect the tidal range in the Irish Sea is too high for a railway linkspan. You'd need to bring the ship into a floating harbour for level access, and that would restrict you to the Mersey and Barrow

Or put a lock gate on the dock?

 

[Indigo Soup]

Or put a lock gate on the dock?

A 'floating harbour' is exactly that; personally, I'd call it a non-tidal basin. Most harbours don't have them, because they're expensive to provide

In fact, most ferry terminals don't have a solid quay wall down both sides, which is needed to put a lock gate across the end - you'd also need a pumphouse to adjust the water level, at which point things are getting expensive.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A 'floating harbour' is exactly that; personally, I'd call it a non-tidal basin. Most harbours don't have them, because they're expensive to provide

In fact, most ferry terminals don't have a solid quay wall down both sides, which is needed to put a lock gate across the end - you'd also need a pumphouse to adjust the water level, at which point things are getting expensive.

The train ferry upgrade for Dover was costed (in 1988) at £45 million for the new super ferry "Nord pas de Calais" , along with about £5 million for the link spans and some siding alterations - the highest level of rail traffic carried was just over a million tons a year or so later. The Channel Tunnel saw it closed some years later. The vessel survives as a road RO-RO vessel.

Of course , Dover then had plentiful siding accommodation for ferry and other traffics (Cars in particular) , building this from scratch would have been considerable. The facility was shunted by pairs of class 33 locomtotives working in parallel ....which was quite a sight. There must have been about 40 rail staff diagrammed for the service. (and probably more on the SNCF side !)

 

[Killingworth]

You would have to re-gauge either the train or the Irish Rail network, since Irish trains use 5 foot 3.

I don't think that's an insurmountable issue, although we seem determined to make it so in Britain.

In Spain trains run regularly from Madrid via Santiago to El Ferrol. Electric between Madrid and Santiago, diesel from there to El Ferrol. (They had a spot of bother with one of them going too fast around a bend in 2013, the Santiago de Compostela derailment )

Standard gauge for that first section, Iberian gauge for the second. Same train. They have many more gauge issues in Spain than we have and seem to be living with them quite well.

See this pdf report to see ways in which it is done, AUTOMATIC TRACK GAUGE CHANGE OVER FOR TRAINS IN SPAIN

 

[randyrippley]

Or put a lock gate on the dock?

That would stop all-hours access to the harbour
I don't know Stranraer, but if you tried that at Heysham you'd cut 24/7 access to two 2-hour high tide periods per day. Considering theres something like ten sailings each way each day you'd lose most of the service

 

[randyrippley]

I don't think that's an insurmountable issue, although we seem determined to make it so in Britain.

In Spain trains run regularly from Madrid via Santiago to El Ferrol. Electric between Madrid and Santiago, diesel from there to El Ferrol. (They had a spot of bother with one of them going too fast around a bend in 2013, the Santiago de Compostela derailment )

Standard gauge for that first section, Iberian gauge for the second. Same train. They have many more gauge issues in Spain than we have and seem to be living with them quite well.

See this pdf report to see ways in which it is done, AUTOMATIC TRACK GAUGE CHANGE OVER FOR TRAINS IN SPAIN

Just more cost
Trucks don't need change of gauge

 

[HSTEd]

That would stop all-hours access to the harbour
I don't know Stranraer, but if you tried that at Heysham you'd cut 24/7 access to two 2-hour high tide periods per day. Considering theres something like ten sailings each way each day you'd lose most of the service

With provision of a pumping station this is not true.

 

[randyrippley]

With provision of a pumping station this is not true.

Only if you built a ship sized lock at the harbour entrance, even then you'd be imposing considerable delays.
If - as was being suggested above - you only had a single gate then realistically it could only be opened at high tide: the thought of trying to pump a basin the size of (for instance) Heysham is absurd

 

[HSTEd]

Only if you built a ship sized lock at the harbour entrance, even then you'd be imposing considerable delays.
If - as was being suggested above - you only had a single gate then realistically it could only be opened at high tide: the thought of trying to pump a basin the size of (for instance) Heysham is absurd

I was referring to dock in the sense of something far more restricted in size.
For example something the size of a shiplock.

But actually at Heysham there isn't so much of a problem because about 100 cubic metres of water is pumped out of the harbour basin every second anyway!

 

[GrimShady]

One of the reasons Stena moved to top of Loch Ryan was due to restrictions they had with under keel clearances in the Loch, even P&O are constrained by draught at low water up at Cairnryan. For those that don't know, a bigger draught means a bigger ship which in turn gives you a much larger net tonnage and also the economies of scale.

The Loch would need a lot of dredging to get 5.5m draught vessels to Stranraer approx the size of MV Nord pas de Calais.

 

[GrimShady]

Just more cost
Trucks don't need change of gauge

Intermodal or LOLO flat wagons would be appropriate.

 

[GrimShady]

The train ferry upgrade for Dover was costed (in 1988) at £45 million for the new super ferry "Nord pas de Calais" , along with about £5 million for the link spans and some siding alterations - the highest level of rail traffic carried was just over a million tons a year or so later. The Channel Tunnel saw it closed some years later. The vessel survives as a road RO-RO vessel.

Of course , Dover then had plentiful siding accommodation for ferry and other traffics (Cars in particular) , building this from scratch would have been considerable. The facility was shunted by pairs of class 33 locomtotives working in parallel ....which was quite a sight. There must have been about 40 rail staff diagrammed for the service. (and probably more on the SNCF side !)

NPC had to be loaded like this for stability reasons. Unequal loading would have have meant severe listing putting the linkspan rails out of alignment or even damaging NPC herself.

 

[nw1]

Good luck with that one.

Not sure what the market is (or, frankly, ever was)

People in Galloway towns (Castle Douglas etc) wishing to travel to other parts of the country and who do not wish to, or are not able to, drive.
Tourists wishing to visit Galloway by rail.


Not the most populated area in the world, but an area with quite a few medium-sized towns and tourist destinations with no rail link at all.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

https://trundleage.co.uk/2019/07/new-lines-and-stations-proposed-for-south-west-scotland/

New Rail Stations on the Glasgow South Western Line

New rail stations on the Glasgow South Western Line, such as at Cumnock, Thornhill, Eastriggs, Pinwherry, Dunragit and South of Ayr.

New Rail Stations on West Coast Main Line

New rail station at Beattock

New Rail Link between Dumfries and Stranraer

Development of a rail link between Dumfries and Stranraer.

New Rail Link between Stranraer and Cairnryan

Development of a rail link between Stranraer and Cairnryan.

New Rail link between the Glasgow South Western Line and the West Coast Main Line

Development of a rail link between the Glasgow South Western Line and the West Coast Main Line.

Any thoughts?

 

[yoyothehobo]

Beattock idea has been around for ages and seems reasonable should TPE be able to stop there without impacting VTWC.

Dumfries to Stranraer - Haha, see a marathon thread from a few years back to why this is a terrible idea.

Stranraer to Cairnryan - Might as well just make a lounge and a connecting bus at Stranraer. There is no railfreight market due to the nature of what is actually carried, with people give them a nice bus from a nice warm lounge at Stranraer, timed to go straight onto the coach and unload as the last vehicle.
GSWL Stations - Dont know enough to comment, how many stations is too many in a very sparsely populated area.

GSWL to WCML - Would have to be very short to be worthwhile, I assume around the Eastriggs area to Kirkpatrick to avoid crossing the A74(M)

 

[Clansman]

Beattock idea has been around for ages and seems reasonable should TPE be able to stop there without impacting VTWC.
GSWL to WCML - Would have to be very short to be worthwhile, I assume around the Eastriggs area to Kirkpatrick to avoid crossing the A74(M)

These two are the most worthwhile ones IMO. IIRC the proposal for Beattock included scope for ScotRail to operate services down that way.
As foar the second proposal, I think it was to have a Carstairs style junction between Dumfries and Annan and link up with the WCML just south of Lockerbie.

 

[Altnabreac]

https://trundleage.co.uk/2019/07/new-lines-and-stations-proposed-for-south-west-scotland/



Any thoughts?

Almost certainly the best business case of any of these ideas would be the Ayr South station.

A Park and Ride site adjacent to the A77, Ayr Hospital and the new housing planned in that area would almost certainly do excellent business. Ideally you'd electrify from Ayr to it and have a 3 platform station with reversing in a central bay platform but perhaps a 2 platform station served by DMUs only is more realistic as a first phase.