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Dublin - Belfast Express Bus War

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F Great Eastern

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Dublin Coach have today announced that they will be using new 2017 Tri-Axle Mercedes-Benz Tourismo's including toilets, charger ports, leather seating and wifi onboard and they are going to release their full timetable on Tuesday morning, two days before their service starts.

Meanwhile it appears that Aircoach will stick with their 2009 Volvo Jonckheere SHV Tri-Axles on the route at least for the moment, however there is rumour that they may get a light refurbishment consisting of exterior repaint, interior touch up and power outlets fitted.

Those issues and the requirement that change is given in Euros on Bus Eireann cross-border services, even apparantly for journeys originating in Northern Ireland, create needless disadvantages for them compared to other operators, including Translink. It's practices like that which make their current difficulties unsurprising.

There are a few elements that have put Bus Eireann in the current situation they are in, but I don't think this, however odd it seems this practice makes anything more than a minor impact on their business overall on it's own.
 
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There are a few elements that have put Bus Eireann in the current situation they are in, but I don't think this, however odd it seems this practice makes anything more than a minor impact on their business overall on it's own.

I meant that it is symptomatic of a wider inflexible, attitude which is perhaps behind some of their issues.
 

F Great Eastern

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Dublin Coach have released their timetable which looks hard to deliver:
http://dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/M1-bus-belfast-dublin-city.php

Can't see them doing it in 1hr 50 mins at anything other than the quietest parts of the day, at peak times they will have no chance of doing it at all as traffic will without doubt slow them up. Aircoach for comparison allow the same amount of time from Dublin Airport to Belfast, which is 10km closer to Belfast!

Clearly the journey time has been picked to be as low as possible to give the emphasis of speed over Aircoach, whether it is fully deliverable or not, that combined with running a bus war style timetable and not running evening services which vary wildly in demand from day to day.

The problem is no doubt this will lead to the competition on the route considering going down the same road in relation to ambitious timetables to keep in touch.
 

radamfi

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Dublin Coach have today announced that they will be using new 2017 Tri-Axle Mercedes-Benz Tourismo's including toilets, charger ports, leather seating and wifi onboard and they are going to release their full timetable on Tuesday morning, two days before their service starts.

Do these Tourismos have adjustable width seats, so that you can pull the aisle seat about 5-10 cm into the aisle? Actually, do any Irish operators have them? It makes a massive difference in privacy and would be a selling point for me on a competitive route if one operator has it and the other didn't.
 

F Great Eastern

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Do these Tourismos have adjustable width seats, so that you can pull the aisle seat about 5-10 cm into the aisle? Actually, do any Irish operators have them? It makes a massive difference in privacy and would be a selling point for me on a competitive route if one operator has it and the other didn't.

Have no idea - these Tourismo's have not been used on any service work yet, all they have been used for is for type training / route learning and the occasional tour journey since they were brand new a couple of months ago, but I expected them to be of a good spec. Dublin Coach are claiming that they have less seats = more comfort.

However it's open to debate who or what they are comparing against, because up until now the 2009 Volvo Jonckheere operated by Aircoach is widely known to offer the most leg-room and best seat comfort on Intercity work in Ireland - they offer 51 seats on a tri-axle when most are 59-63 and extremely comfortable Gala VIP seating.

I suspect they may be comparing themselves against Translink and Bus Eireann who have a less generous set-up than Aircoach, generally around 59-61 seats in a tri-axle and not full leather seating and less leg-room.
 

F Great Eastern

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Do these Tourismos have adjustable width seats, so that you can pull the aisle seat about 5-10 cm into the aisle? Actually, do any Irish operators have them? It makes a massive difference in privacy and would be a selling point for me on a competitive route if one operator has it and the other didn't.

Dublin Coach have released a video of the inside of the Tourismos:
https://www.facebook.com/DublinCoach/videos/1297788746969763/

No mention about seats pulling out.
 

F Great Eastern

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Aircoach have extended their offer of tickets from £6/€7.50 for another day and confirmed they are adding charging points to Belfast fleet. Many believe they have a plan up their sleeve they haven't revealed yet.

Dublin Coach confirmed they will be offering free tickets on opening day and will operate brand new Mercedes Tourismos with toilets, no USB ports, still believed they are holding something back they haven't revealed yet.

I meant that it is symptomatic of a wider inflexible, attitude which is perhaps behind some of their issues.

Bus Eireann have now cut tickets from €18 to €10 when bought online.
 
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bangor-toad

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Dublin Coach have released their timetable which looks hard to deliver:
http://dublincoach.ie/timetables-fares/M1-bus-belfast-dublin-city.php

Can't see them doing it in 1hr 50 mins at anything other than the quietest parts of the day, at peak times they will have no chance of doing it at all as traffic will without doubt slow them up. Aircoach for comparison allow the same amount of time from Dublin Airport to Belfast, which is 10km closer to Belfast!

Wow. I agree with you.
There's no way that they can adhere to that timetable. On many mornings it'll take 45 minutes to get just from Hillsborough into central Belfast. (That's the last 12 miles).

With only 15 minutes between arrival and departure times I can see the timetable becoming utterly detacted from reality by mid afternoon. The current operators already seem to push right to limit of road speeds and turnarounds so I can't see how that this reduction is possible.

Still, it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out and it's already started to offer me the option of an even cheaper trip down to Dublin...
Cheers,
Mr Toad
 

F Great Eastern

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Google Maps suggests in a car at off peak times, it will take 1hr 53 mins.

It all kicks off Thursday and with one service leaving at half past the hour and another at 35 past the hour all going from a bus stop that can barely take one tri-axle coach, I can't imagine it's going to be a nice environment for a member of the public to be, either in term of crowd or the companies all competing, probably with reps at the stop, for the same passengers.

That's without considering the fact that it's quite possible that one operator could lay over at the stop to stop the other getting in, the other operator may then be in trouble for not parking safely at a bus stop when at their departure time they cannot pull into their stop, because another coach is there, and then the competitor can hoover up the passengers in this knowledge.

This is the bus stop:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.5...GLXFB0jev0CH5WhU_uzQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

That Aircoach vehicle takes up the whole stop, there is a driveway just in front of it and behind the coach, there is no way they can fit two vehicles there.
 

F Great Eastern

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!Dublin coach have now gone to eight pound return according to their Facebook.

I am curious what their costs are because the price is too low to be sustainable and it's clear what they are up to.
 

Mwanesh

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I see someone giving up soon .I just think First will fight this one .Lets see if they are any new coaches on order.First are not good at express services.
 

F Great Eastern

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First are not good at express services.

To be fair to them they were the first operator on Dublin-Cork non stop in 2012 and whilst a competitor came along several months later (GoBus) with a similar timetable (but on the half hour from each city not the hour) and tried to undercut First on fares and use the attraction of bus station based departures and also providing toilets which First did not at that particular time.

However that operation was plagued by the fact that GoBus hesitated about starting, before agreeing a three way partnership (as GoBE) between Bus Eireann and Bernard Kavanagh and itself which led to using BE stations and contracting the running to BK, however GoBus wanted to only sell tickets online and not through BE/BK to build up a passenger database and revenue in case the partnership later broke down as they were the operator/licensee.

Apart from the obvious issues of too many hands in the pie, there were only two vehicles dedicated to the GoBE service. BK is a well known operator in Ireland that operates contract services for many different brands so coaches in many different liveries operated the service sometimes with no indication the service they were operating, some in plain white, sometimes full livery for other brands with a sign in the window for GoBE, and others with stickers messily stuck over the base company logo with the rest of the livery intact.

First fought the toilet war by sending in coaches from the UK with toilets to take away that USP (their existing fleet at the time didn't have any) and then went to a euro cheaper than GoBe on fares and then branded 7 of their coaches on the route with back and both side route branding, creating brand recognition, another thing that GoBE had failed to do. In the end GoBe was forced to raise prices and substantially cut back it's timetable within several months of launch.

Since then First invested in a fleet of 10 new coaches in 2014 exclusively for the route and added a further 3 in 2016 all branded up for the route and whilst GoBE have re-added some services, First are still the clear winners on the route and despite running 18 times a day in each direction are still needing reliefs at peak time due to passenger numbers and the base fare for the route is still only €1 more expensive than it was at launch.

I see someone giving up soon .I just think First will fight this one .Lets see if they are any new coaches on order.

This is a different route to most other routes in the Irish Republic because it is international and there are a lot of different things which operators can do in relation to timetabling and operation of routes that cannot be done on routes within the country which are subject to oversight by the national regulator.

They set up the Belfast Express route in 2012, they previously ran a stopping service until 2010 which they axed because of intense competition from both the train and Bus Eireann and Translink, but the Express route was started up from pretty much nothing, from outside the Europa Bus station in Belfast, for the first year or so it was really not doing that much trade.

However it was somewhat or a ground-breaker on the route as to the fact it operated 24 hours a day and all year round. Translink ran a non stop service in the summer but it wasn't that many times a day and ran very infrequently in Winter, Aircoach operated from 2012 and still operate services 22 times a day in each direction and in 2014 it started to pick up the pace and in 2015 and 2016 especially it started to perform well.

During late 2015 and early 2016 they upgraded the vehicles on the Belfast route from 44 seat 2004 Setra vehicles to 53 seat 2009 Jonckheere SHV Tri-Axles due to increasing demand and those vehicles are currently in the process of getting a light refurbishment with USB sockets being added in to the coaches, with new vehicles for Belfast said to be arriving sometime in the second half of the year.

However with the competition operating 2017 Tourismo's with toilets, it remains to be seen if that will be sufficient or quick enough response to stop passengers going from city to city on the competition, even after they add the USP of charging sockets to their existing coaches in a cut throat price war where the competition are selling fares which are going to be unsustainable after a short while, to date, whilst Aircoach has cut it's fares in response it has not gone close to matching the ultra cheap fare of £8/€10 return.

If you add to the story that the boss of the competition is the person who founded Aircoach before First bought it, you have another interesting narrative aspect of this war, since whilst he first agreed to stay on at the company, he left a little while after First took control.
 

F Great Eastern

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New Vehicles for Belfast arriving mid to late summer for Aircoach.

The war has started up again the last week or so with Dublin Coach taking out massive advertisements in Belfast City and continued streetwalkers advertising the service however apparently they are not hitting the numbers they were expecting.

When the Bus Eireann strike was a distraction for three weeks as both companies had to focus resources on their overall networks rather than just one route, now it's started again.
 

F Great Eastern

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Dublin Coach reported to be getting some very much improved loads on their head to head services versus First, who are none too happy about this carry on, particularly when they have had no reduction in bus station fees from Translink which is a sore point because First had to fight to get access to that stop now they feel they are being taken for a mug.

There's also been murmurings in Enthusiast circles that Dublin Coach are the lowest payers in the industry among the bigger privates and are paying their staff about 20% less than Aircoach and are not paying overtime if the bus runs late, which would explain the hard to achieve timetables, since even if they are late the driver doesn't get paid.

Dublin Coach are still charging £8/€10 return as a promotional fare, and there continues to be speculation on what their costs are despite the fact they have lower wages, especially with the revelation that the company is heavily loss making and it's financial auditors had a scathing report of the company finances in their last published accounts.

Many people have simply asked why Aircoach do not cut their prices to the same as Dublin Coach. They cannot. The route is run under EU law and under EU Law below cost pricing by a dominant operator or an incumbent is not permitted, which essentially means DC can sell below cost if they want but Aircoach cannot and DC appear to be exploiting this.

In May First are said to be going to have a full review of the route and deciding what action to take.
 

F Great Eastern

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They are nice, although it was surprising they didn't go for USB ports or charging sockets in a new coach, which Aircoach appeared to pick on rather quickly by getting Volvo to fit them in the overhead panels literally days after that video was posted!
 

Roilshead

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I've used the Dublin Coach service from Dublin-Belfast twice over the last few weeks: yes, the seats do slide out into the aisle - but, this might conflict with anybody wishing to use the aisle to access the toilet.

The first time I used the service was a 2:30pm departure on Friday April 7th - during both the Easter holiday and the BE strike - when there were 12+ on board. The second time I used the service was last Tuesday, on the 1:30pm departure there were 3 of us on board - I did notice an earlier departure that day with just one passenger on board.

From my perspective Dublin Coach offers a faster service end-to-end compared to either BE/Ulsterbus or Aircoach, and both substantially cheaper and more frequently than the IE/NIR Enterprise service (on which First Class is frankly rubbish). But, the terminal arrangements outside the Custom House in Dublin leave a lot to be desired: on my first trip there wasn't even a bus stop flag to indicate from where the service departed, I just assumed that the half-a-dozen people with bags hovering around a Dublin Coach was probably an indication (a stop flag was there last week); drivers hours regulations seem to prevent boarding/issuing of tickets much before departure time, and there's not much cover at the departure point (on my first journey we left standing on the pavement until just prior to departure, on my second journey it started snowing and so the driver did eventually take pity on us and allowed us to board the coach and sit aboard until his tachograph/ticket machine would "allow" him to issue tickets). And on both trips we were late arriving into Belfast, actually after the scheduled departure time out of Belfast, and this was on journeys with no delays out of Dublin, along the motorway/trunk-road, or into Belfast.

I've only made this journey four times, and the other two have been by BE/Ulsterbus north and Aircoach south - but on both trips the majority of the loading was between Belfast and Dublin Airport . . .

Incidentally, when I traveled southwards by Aircoach on the 7th April the coach was stopped at the UK/RoI border by An Garda Síochána for a passport/ID check: four passengers who couldn't produce passports (or ID confirming UK/RoI residence) were removed from the coach - the driver of the Dublin Coach on which I traveled on last Tuesday confirmed that he too had been stopped on a couple of occasions . . . but only when traveling south.
 
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F Great Eastern

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From my perspective Dublin Coach offers a faster service end-to-end compared to either BE/Ulsterbus or Aircoach, and both substantially cheaper and more frequently than the IE/NIR Enterprise service (on which First Class is frankly rubbish).

And I have no problem with the actual service starting, my issue more is the fact that the times they have chosen to leave the buses at and the fare that they are charging, because for the last six weeks they have been charging £8 / €10 return and running just behind the competition, the price is not sustainable and has a very clearly motive, especially when you see on one end they're leaving at virtually the same time as a competitor from the same stop, it's a way of basically removing the need to invest in the service and build it up.

drivers hours regulations seem to prevent boarding/issuing of tickets much before departure time, and there's not much cover at the departure point (on my first journey we left standing on the pavement until just prior to departure, on my second journey it started snowing and so the driver did eventually take pity on us and allowed us to board the coach and sit aboard until his tachograph/ticket machine would "allow" him to issue tickets). And on both trips we were late arriving into Belfast, actually after the scheduled departure time out of Belfast, and this was on journeys with no delays out of Dublin, along the motorway/trunk-road, or into Belfast.

Generally in Enthusiast circles in ROI, most people believe that Dublin Coach at the very least are one of the lowest payers in the industry and are believed to be paying their staff on a daily rate basis with the rotas and timetables leaving very little margin for delay, and the driving hours being pushed almost to the limit, so what you say does not surprise me. Also as for the services running late, again this plays a part.

If the driver ends up doing say an hours overtime because of the fact he has knock on delay after knock on delay he/she gets no extra cash and the timetables are unrealistic in my view, according to Google, in a CAR it takes 1hr 49 mins for the route that bus does outside peak without delays, there is no way a bus can do it in just 1 minute more with the lower speed limits, heavier vehicles off-peak without any delays, let alone peak with delays.
 
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philthetube

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Wow. I agree with you.
There's no way that they can adhere to that timetable. On many mornings it'll take 45 minutes to get just from Hillsborough into central Belfast. (That's the last 12 miles).

With only 15 minutes between arrival and departure times I can see the timetable becoming utterly detacted from reality by mid afternoon. The current operators already seem to push right to limit of road speeds and turnarounds so I can't see how that this reduction is possible.

Still, it'll be interesting to see how it all plays out and it's already started to offer me the option of an even cheaper trip down to Dublin...
Cheers,
Mr Toad

This sounds to me as if the plan is to do two trips a day, they will not have to be very late on arrival to need a full meal break before returning, and if a long first trip will be unable to do the second.

I wonder if the opposition are watching the opposition are monitoring this.
 

F Great Eastern

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Another Tranche of fare / offer adjustments

Aircoach
Increase in Dublin Airport - Belfast online fare to €12/£10 from €11/£9
No changes to Dublin - Belfast Online or on bus fares (remain at £8/€10 single)

Bus Eireann
Bus Eireann have increased online single Dublin City - Belfast fare to €12.95 from €10.00
Bus Eireann have reduced online single Dublin Airport - Belfast fare to €12.67 from €15.00

Dublin Coach
Offer of £8/€10 return continues for at least another week or two
£3 off Titanic Belfast Entry with Coach Tickets

Enterprise Train
Advance Tickets starting at £8.99 from Belfast

Translink
On Bus £15.40 single / £22.50 return to Dublin City reduced to £10 single / £20 Return
On Bus £15 single / £22 return to Dublin Airport reduced to £10 single / £20 Return.
Online fares remain £9 single to Dublin Airport and £9.50 to Dublin City.
 
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F Great Eastern

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Dublin Coach now offering discounts in shops in Belfast for people who use their services from Dublin.
 

F Great Eastern

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Dublin Coach have now increased their on bus prices to £8/€10 single their online tickets still remain £8/€10 return.

Apparent reason is that many of their services were running late and people were bleeding to Aircoach because of there was no incentive to book tickets up-front.

By doing this, they lock the passengers in to stop that bleed if they are late.
 

F Great Eastern

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Bus Eireann and Translink have now announced an additional 9 X2 non stop services between Dublin Airport and Belfast in each direction commencing today.

Now services will look similar to this between 8am and 3pm for instance from Belfast

08:00am Enterprise Train to Dublin via Portadown, Newry, Dundalk
08:00am Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
08:00am Bus Eireann/Translink X2 to Dublin Airport

08:30am First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
08:35am Dublin Coach 400 to Dublin City
09:00am Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
09:00am Bus Eireann/Translink X2 to Dublin via Airport

09:30am First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
09:35am Dublin Coach 400 to Dublin City
10:00am Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
10:00am Bus Eireann/Translink X2 to Dublin via Airport

10:30am First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
10:35am Dublin Coach 400 to Dublin City
10:35am Enterprise Train to Dublin via Portadown, Newry, Dundalk, Drogheda
11:00am Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
11:30am First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
11:35am Dublin Coach 400 to Dublin City
12:00pm Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
12:00pm Bus Eireann/Translink X2 to Dublin Airport

12:30pm First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
12:35pm Dublin Coach 400 to Dublin City
12:35pm Enterprise Train to Dublin via Portadown, Newry, Dundalk, Drogheda
1:00pm Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
1:30pm First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
1:35pm Dublin Coach 400 to Dublin City
2:00pm Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
2:00pm Bus Eireann/Translink X2 to Dublin Airport

2:05pm Enterprise Train to Dublin via Portadown, Newry, Dundalk, Drogheda
2:30pm First Aircoach 705X to Dublin via Airport
2:35pm Dublin Coach 400 to Dublin City
3:00pm Bus Eireann/Translink X1 to Dublin via Sprucefield, Banbridge, Newry, Airport
3:00pm Bus Eireann/Translink X2 to Dublin Airport

(all stops listed)

This will not be able to last for much longer, following the introduction of the Dublin Coach services in March there has been generally agreed over-capacity on the route and this will increase that.

Aircoach look particuarly vulnerable since they're now being attacked at both ends, city to city traffic by Dublin Coach and City to Airport by Bus Eireann because of the de-regulated licensing as this is a cross-border route.
 
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