Dry trains

[yorksrob]

No, I don't think I 'have developed an out of proportion fear of alcohol' I enjoy a drink and pubs regularly, and recognise that on those occasions I have chosen to be in a place where people will be drinking/drunk and behaving accordingly. Importantly, everyone in those establishments has chosen to be around alcohol and its effects.

The railways are primarily a means of transport and, too many times, I have had journeys spoilt by drunken behaviour which I have not chosen to be a part of and from which there is often little option of removing myself. We accept alcohol restrictions in many other public spaces and - personally - I would happily add public transport to that list.

And you also mentioned previously that you have taken part in such activities in the past.

Is it a case of converts becoming the most vociferous proponents (in this case of prohibition) ?

 

[greyman42]

To treat people that went to Football different to others, is of course nonsense.

The problem is that they don't always behave the same way as the "others".

 

[greyman42]

I quite agree. While we're at it I'd ban talking on trains, listening to music, singing football fans, screaming kids, snoring pensioners and anyone who behaves in a way I disapprove of.

Well seriously, I would ban listening to music and singing football fans as well. Both are very irritating and spoil peoples journeys. Unfortunately there is not a lot you can do about screaming kids.

 

[sheff1]

To treat people that went to Football different to others, is of course nonsense.

The problem is that they don't always behave the same way as the "others".

Indeed. People who have been to the football will often be sat talking about the match they have been to or the results from elsewhere. "Others" on their way, say, to 'a girl's night out' will be shouting, screeching and running up and down the train in between loudly bragging about their sexual relationships.

 

[greyman42]

Indeed. People who have been to the football will often be sat talking about the match they have been to or the results from elsewhere. "Others" on their way, say, to 'a girl's night out' will be shouting, screeching and running up and down the train in between loudly bragging about their sexual relationships.

Yes you are correct. The vast majority of football supports behave exactly the same as other passengers. I am one of them. As for the girls night out, you are again correct.

 

[Nev20]

Nail. On. The. Head.

I follow United up and down the country, with my mates. A group of us. 5/6 all 18-21. Why should we not be able to have a few cans on the way back, while discussing the football, while someone else can just because we happen to have been at football? It's ludicrous, and frankly, snobbery.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The difference is that those behaviours, whilst annoying, rarely feel threatening (except perhaps the football fans who are often fuelled by drink). A threatening atmosphere is much less tolerable than an annoying one.

The railways are primarily a means of transport and, too many times, I have had journeys spoilt by drunken behaviour which I have not chosen to be a part of and from which there is often little option of removing myself. We accept alcohol restrictions in many other public spaces and - personally - I would happily add public transport to that list.

This is the thing, when I've been out and about for the day and have been heading home from Manchester to Huddersfield I've had the journey ruined by drunkards who are obviously incapable of looking after themselves or are so inebriated that for their and others safety they should be removed from the train or prohibated from boarding until their are sober enough to travel. I.e they are turned away from all services that depart Man Picc between 2000 and 2300 for being wasted.

There was one incident that I was told about and that was when both my mate and his wife were heading back to Huddersfield on a Friday night after flying back from Rio to Manchester Airport. Between the airport and Huddersfield, some drunkard was leering at her, touching her inappropriately and trying to chat her up when her wedding ring was visible. Her husband, who was at the toilet at the time, found out what had happened and had firm words with the drunkard who had done it. Something was said on the lines of ‘do it again and you’ll be off this train along with your p****d mates and your booze’ - since the incident, she won't hesitate to punch anyone who is drunk and constantly annoying her whilst travelling on public transport. She has said to me ‘why not have a special bus laid on for those who are p****d so that that us who aren’t can have peace’. To which I agreed.

 

[PR1Berske]

And you also mentioned previously that you have taken part in such activities in the past.

Is it a case of converts becoming the most vociferous proponents (in this case of prohibition) ?

"The zeal of the convert," it's called. Political party defectors have it too, suddenly dismissing everything they once stood for.

Many moons ago I took the last, or nearly last, stopper from Glasgow to Carlisle. Drunk folks around me from young to much (much) older. And what a great people watching, language studying, character writing experience it was, I tell you.

I do respect and recognise that it must get unsettling to certain people in drunken situations, and as I've said before, there are ways to tackle behaviour without clamping down on everybody. Not all drunks are a potential danger. Not all those who are quiet are safe, either. I'm sure it's not a saying, but it might well be if we all work on it, something like "The quiet passenger can still have the heaviest punch, the drunk may only have the loudest snore."

 

[greyman42]

This is the thing, when I've been out and about for the day and have been heading home from Manchester to Huddersfield I've had the journey ruined by drunkards who are obviously incapable of looking after themselves or are so inebriated that for their and others safety they should be removed from the train or prohibated from boarding until their are sober enough to travel. I.e they are turned away from all services that depart Man Picc between 2000 and 2300 for being wasted.

There was one incident that I was told about and that was when both my mate and his wife were heading back to Huddersfield on a Friday night after flying back from Rio to Manchester Airport. Between the airport and Huddersfield, some drunkard was leering at her, touching her inappropriately and trying to chat her up when her wedding ring was visible. Her husband, who was at the toilet at the time, found out what had happened and had firm words with the drunkard who had done it. Something was said on the lines of ‘do it again and you’ll be off this train along with your p****d mates and your booze’ - since the incident, she won't hesitate to punch anyone who is drunk and constantly annoying her whilst travelling on public transport. She has said to me ‘why not have a special bus laid on for those who are p****d so that that us who aren’t can have peace’. To which I agreed.

The cost of laying on the special bus is why.

 

[yorksrob]

"The zeal of the convert," it's called. Political party defectors have it too, suddenly dismissing everything they once stood for.

Many moons ago I took the last, or nearly last, stopper from Glasgow to Carlisle. Drunk folks around me from young to much (much) older. And what a great people watching, language studying, character writing experience it was, I tell you.

I do respect and recognise that it must get unsettling to certain people in drunken situations, and as I've said before, there are ways to tackle behaviour without clamping down on everybody. Not all drunks are a potential danger. Not all those who are quiet are safe, either. I'm sure it's not a saying, but it might well be if we all work on it, something like "The quiet passenger can still have the heaviest punch, the drunk may only have the loudest snore."

Indeed. I've noticed the same thing in that I have a more lenient view of smoking rooms etc than many ex-smokers I've met, although of course, passive smoking makes the argument somewhat different from the imbibing of alcohol.

I should point out that I am a current, rather than an ex drinker.

 

[skyhigh]

I would suggest that 4 (3) (ii) does exactly that:

4. Intoxication and possession of intoxicating liquor said:

(1) No person shall enter or remain on the railway where such person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway as a result of being in a state of intoxication.
(2) Where reasonable notice is, or has been, given prohibiting intoxicating liquor on any train service, no person shall have any intoxicating liquor with him on it, or attempt to enter such a train with intoxicating liquor with him.
(3) Where an authorised person reasonably believes that any person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway, or has with him intoxicating liquor contrary to Byelaw 4(2), an authorised person may:
(i) require him to leave the railway; and (ii) prevent him entering or remaining on the railway until an authorised person is satisfied that he has no intoxicating liquor with him and/or is no longer in an unfit condition.

(From the quote in your post)

Thanks for pointing that out, right under my nose! Although, that only applies if an authorised person has a reasonable belief that a person is (or was) carrying alcohol so wouldn't wash for blanked searches. Anyway, the point still stands that I never had to carry out blanket alcohol searches on passengers for dry trains in the area I worked.

 

[CentralTrainer]

Nail. On. The. Head.

I follow United up and down the country, with my mates. A group of us. 5/6 all 18-21. Why should we not be able to have a few cans on the way back, while discussing the football, while someone else can just because we happen to have been at football? It's ludicrous, and frankly, snobbery.

The three worst experiences I’ve had with drunken sports fans vomiting, swearing, loudly disturbing the rest of us etc. were a group of Rugby fans on the way back from an England game - and two seperate experiences of race goers - one on the way back from Cheltenham to Birmingham and the other on a service from Ascot back into London.

They were markedly worse than any football fans I have encountered on the rail network.

 

[fowler9]

London Midland had the bizarre idea of banning people from drinking as they headed back to Cheshire from Liverpool when they are already smashed.

For the record the worst drunks I have ever seen on the train have been people who have been to horse racing meets. Most football fans know they will get their heads cracked by the police and no one will care.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

With a hideous candelabra ..

(you have to be of a certain age to understand this quip at a passed on pianist..)

.......
..and possibly the irony of a spelling error/deliberate malapropism?/ in a thread concerning the effects of alcohol

 

[Mutant Lemming]

People going to other events may be more rowdy these days than contemporary football fans but they never quite reached the extent that football hooliganism displayed at it's "high" point and it is that point in time many still recall when picturing football hooligans on trains.

 

[fowler9]

People going to other events may be more rowdy these days than contemporary football fans but they never quite reached the extent that football hooliganism displayed at it's "high" point and it is that point in time many still recall when picturing football hooligans on trains.

Well yes, but that was nearly 50 years ago. Looking at the thread about how old forum members are it is a good 20 to 30 years before well over 50% were born.

 

[furnessvale]

People going to other events may be more rowdy these days than contemporary football fans but they never quite reached the extent that football hooliganism displayed at it's "high" point and it is that point in time many still recall when picturing football hooligans on trains.

I've seen worse damage by "bashers", who purport to be rail enthusiasts.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Well yes, but that was nearly 50 years ago. Looking at the thread about how old forum members are it is a good 20 to 30 years before well over 50% were born.

Maybe, but the legacy of those times explains why football supporters tend to get treated less favourably even now.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The cost of laying on the special bus is why.

For starters the drunkards can shout, swear, behave in a mynostic manner, throw or spill beer everywhere and bascially act like morons on a special bus.

Where as those who actually want to relax and enjoy the journey without the fear of harrasment by a hoard of smashed 30 or 40-somethings that are that wasted you could chuck them off at Guide Bridge and state that they're at Stalybridge and the drunk woudn't be able to tell the difference.

 

[fowler9]

For starters the drunkards can shout, swear, behave in a mynostic manner, throw or spill beer everywhere and bascially act like morons on a special bus.

Where as those who actually want to relax and enjoy the journey without the fear of harrasment by a hoard of smashed 30 or 40-somethings that are that wasted you could chuck them off at Guide Bridge and state that they're at Stalybridge and the drunk woudn't be able to tell the difference.

For starters the drunkards can shout, swear, behave in a mynostic manner, throw or spill beer everywhere and bascially act like morons on a special bus.

Where as those who actually want to relax and enjoy the journey without the fear of harrasment by a hoard of smashed 30 or 40-somethings that are that wasted you could chuck them off at Guide Bridge and state that they're at Stalybridge and the drunk woudn't be able to tell the difference.

Hmmm. What about the 20 somethings or the teens? Do you have an axe to grind with older people?

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Hmmm. What about the 20 somethings or the teens? Do you have an axe to grind with older people?

I have no axe to grind. From my observation when I've travelled out of Manchester on a Saturday night, most of the drunks onboard appear to be aged between 34 and 44.

 

[fowler9]

I have no axe to grind. From my observation when I've travelled out of Manchester on a Saturday night, most of the drunks onboard appear to be aged between 34 and 44.

Well thats it, I'm sold.

 

[takno]

Well thats it, I'm sold.

Me too. I fully accept that should I, in the next two years or so, find myself drunk on a Saturday night train out of Manchester (something which I now realise I was previously only able to safely carry off due to being in my twenties), I will unavoidably find myself a terror and a nuisance in ways which are so utterly out of character that only alcohol can be to blame. Luckily Northern will probably have cancelled the train service anyway.

Actually, in all fairness, it's refreshing to hear people not blame teens and people in their early twenties for everything. The behaviour outlined in the earlier post was completely unacceptable whether the perpetrator was drunk or sober, young or old. I generally support taking a liberal attitude to drinking on trains, and avoid turning people away from any public transport for being drunk, but I don't at all accept drunkenness as an excuse for terrible behaviour

 

[PR1Berske]

Getting into a generational bunfight over alcohol intake might be blurring the line between the conversation we have around the Christmas table with that we have on the forum

 

[Bromley boy]

For starters the drunkards can shout, swear, behave in a mynostic manner, throw or spill beer everywhere and bascially act like morons on a special bus.

Where as those who actually want to relax and enjoy the journey without the fear of harrasment by a hoard of smashed 30 or 40-somethings that are that wasted you could chuck them off at Guide Bridge and state that they're at Stalybridge and the drunk woudn't be able to tell the difference.

I can’t say I recognise the 30-40 somethings as regular perpetrators of these antics. The behaviour you describe above sounds very extreme - most drunks wouldn’t waste beer by throwing it around or spilling it .

If you don’t want to be around people being rowdy/having fun/drinking maybe the best solution would be for you to avoid taking late trains on a Saturday night.

That would certainly be a lot easier than proposing an unworkable back on alcohol based on the extreme antics of a few.

 

[Alan2603]

After arriving at Kings Cross off a transatlantic flight into Heathrow, I was faced with the proposition of boarding a 'totally dry' East Coast train whilst carrying my bag of duty free. The BTP officer took pity on me and suggested I hid the duty free bag in my suitcase, which I did. A very pragmatic solution to the problem of dry trains and taking alcohol onboard.

I often travel on the Friday and Saturday evening Grand Central's from London to Sunderland, which become 'dry trains' at York. The onboard staff often move the 'long distance' passengers into First Class just prior to arrival at York. At York the BTP seem to corral the 'well oiled' at one end of the platform so they all board into the same 'now empty' carriages and security staff and occasionally BTP remain on board for the journey north. It seems to work quite well in practice nowadays, but before they started this system, the evening GC trains were trains to avoid north of York, even in First Class which the inebriated tended to 'self declassify'!

 

[sheff1]

Well thats it, I'm sold.

Rather than their age profile, I am more intrigued by their "mynostic manner" which I assume is some sort of Manchester area slang - but what does it involve ?

 

[Bromley boy]

Rather than their age profile, I am more intrigued by their "mynostic manner" which I assume is some sort of Manchester area slang - but what does it involve ?

Looks like a misspelling of “misogynistic” to me.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Looks like a misspelling of “misogynistic” to me.

It is a misspelling, I type too fast.

If you don’t want to be around people being rowdy/having fun/drinking maybe the best solution would be for you to avoid taking late trains on a Saturday night.

The only problem with that would mean having to depart Bristol at 3pm or Warminster at 2pm, leaving me no proper time to see my partner.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Just reminded of myself and the Conductor being assaulted on a westbound HST , circa 1982 on a lovely summery Saturday morning.

Conductor came back to have a word with me "for assistance" - as a "gentleman" in the 1st was refusing to show a ticket.

Treated to a tirade on racism re the conductor and self (don't care who you are mate !) - followed by a drunken attempt to hit me and the conductor with fists and a bottle of Bacardi.

Pre mobile phones - we got the driver to call up the box on NRN , held outside Parkway for 10 and found a welcome party of BTP with dog who treated this man very gently. He was taken off firmly - a "Hard stop" and full charges presented on him , I did not have to go to court to give evidence as the case was cut and dried. Stayed with the C/R to Cardiff where I insisted he was relieved and pass home. Turns out this drunk was well oiled and had been drinking since Washington DC , then duty free , and really got miffed that we had the termerity to ask for a ticket.