Drunkenness / Alcohol consumption policy?

[kuepper]

In a perfect world, maybe.

Back in the real world, what do you propose should happen when:

1) the person refuses to alight

which is then followed by

2) the Police aren't interested.

Like it or not, this is the reality.

You can add in a few extras too, like what do you do if the person you are trying to kick off is underage or is a young female?

None of those things were applicable as the person was never asked to alight, the Police weren't even called, and it was a middle aged man

 

[47271]

I used late night Thameslink trains for a number of years in the 1990s so nothing described in this thread shocks or surprises me, other than the idea that there might be a guard to hand to intervene in any emerging situation.

On the subject of sand buckets, when I was a kid I was on a crowded Northern Line tube when an earlier user had left a little, actually big, something on the floor of an end doorway. We were all standing away from the vomit and trying to look the other way. We stopped at a station, and out of nowhere on the platform appeared two blokes with a shovel and a bucket of sand. The sand was spread liberally on the mess by one, while the other one said to those standing close to it 'Cor, that's what I call a second class ticket'. The doors closed and we left, still avoiding the sand.

 

[kuepper]

The police???!!!

The police should remove the person from the train?



So someone who's thrown up is a 999 call now is it?

If 'Yes' - you're an idiot who needs to get their priorities sorted out.
If 'No' - then the police are extremely unlikely to attend due to dealing with other things - you know, like 999 calls.


"Take a still from the CCTV and distribute it to station staff."
Are you a wind up merchant?
Missing vulnerable people, yes. Serious dangerous criminals, yes. But how are you going to pick those out of a crowded wall, papered with pictures of drunken vomiters? How much time do you think the railway has got to go trawling through CCTV to find a good image, distribute it to stations, print it off. And then what? What if they are spotted? What's going to happen? "You threw up on one of our trains."
"Did I? So what?"

Ridiculous.

The Police's role is to be there to prevent a breach of the peace and it's not a 999 situation just a normal request for service. I've been in exactly that situation before where a gang of drunken youths were involved and everyone praised the action of the guard. What is the cctv there for if it's not to be used in the interest of passengers? I'm not an idiot I just want to have a safe journey free from health and safety hazards, not an unreasonable expectation given the high price we pay for travel.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

The Police's role is to be there to prevent a breach of the peace and it's not a 999 situation just a normal request for service. I've been in exactly that situation before where a gang of drunken youths were involved and everyone praised the action of the guard. What is the cctv there for if it's not to be used in the interest of passengers? I'm not an idiot I just want to have a safe journey free from health and safety hazards, not an unreasonable expectation given the high price we pay for travel.

Do you have any idea just how few police officers are available to provide your "normal service". As for preventing a breach of the peace the limited availability of officers inevitably means that the police spend nearly all of their time in reactionary mode. Prevention will only be attempted in obvious high risk situations, particularly where large crowds are involved. They certainly can't monitor who boards every train at every station nor can they be on stand-by ready to attend any train at any of its subsequent calling points. And guards are most certainly not bouncers and neither are they mobile cleaners. Bottom line: if travelling with the hoi-polloi is so uncomfortable for you then don't travel by train (or any other form of public transport).

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Heres my tuppence worth.

A Guard is stuck between a rock and a hard place on these late trains, like which has previously mentioned we have no back up. There is nowhere near enough BTP or rapid response to watch all the late trains. If the Guard misjudged the situation even slightly he/she could get assaulted and then the train would be cancelled period and where would that leave a few hundred people trying to get home. Sadly vomit is a regular occurence late night fri and sat but most main stations do not have cleaners that time of night and which has also been mentioned if its say a 142 which tend to be rammed where do you put the passengers from one carriage if the other is full? Admittedly some Guards do hide in their back cab way too much BUT CTM's are out monitoring and they do eventually get caught and spoken to. Its not a perfect world we live in but the majority of Guards do their best in very difficult and no one situations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whilst we are on the subject, what exactly is the ethos that inspires "Ale Trains" and is it not the case that gradually increasing the cumulative build-up amount of alcohol consumed in one such a session must surely cause detrimental effects upon the body. Would anyone suggest the use of other types of drugs in a similar fashion?

 

[plymothian]

Ale trains and ale trails were most probably introduced as a marketing gimmick to boost ridership on what were then lightly used lines. Unfortunately, like most things, a minority of people abuse the spirit of the idea and with increased passenger numbers, the extra groups are not always welcome. Case in point the Tarka Line Ale trail has has numerous pubs pull out due to bad behaviour.

It doesn't help either when the solution to drunken passengers is to put them on the train to get rid of them from that area where they are causing trouble - the police are quite fond of that tactic. It then becomes the railway's duty of care to look after them - so no evicting at unstaffed stations for example in case they become a liability to themselves and the railway, or in extreme cases the need for someone (sometimes the guard) to watch them out of the station.

 

[AlterEgo]

The Police's role is to be there to prevent a breach of the peace and it's not a 999 situation just a normal request for service. I've been in exactly that situation before where a gang of drunken youths were involved and everyone praised the action of the guard. What is the cctv there for if it's not to be used in the interest of passengers? I'm not an idiot I just want to have a safe journey free from health and safety hazards, not an unreasonable expectation given the high price we pay for travel.

CCTV is there to be used in your interest, in as much as it's recorded so anyone committing a crime can be hopefully caught.

As others have said, wanting it monitored live by someone is unrealistic. Think about how many people that would involve, just so we can pick up if someone's throwing up on the train.

 

[Greenback]

I admit to vomiting in public. It was very sudden and no alcohol was involved. I hadn't been feeling very well for about half an hour, but I hadn't had any signs that I was going to be sick. I was walking along the pavement and had no time to do anything except let it out. I'm rather glad that no one called 999, I wasn't hauled off to the cells, and a taxi driver who saw it all pulled over and was very sympathetic )although not to the extent of offering me a free ride home in his cab!).

The point of all this is to say that this stuff happens, whether we like it or not. Mostly the individual concerned is at fault, but not always. If it happens on a train, then there is not that much that can practically be done.

I do agree that train crew should be visible and in this incident the carriage could have been cleared and locked out of use.

 

[BestWestern]

This is precisely the "response" it would get on a DOO service, at least until the train reached a location with cleaners or where staff could be alerted to lock the carriage out.

Yup. DOO is crap. Where there is a Guard, however, he would be deemed responsible for taking appropriate action.

 

[kuepper]

Make of it what you will, I've received a 2nd response from NRC after complaining to my MP:

(1)why the drunk was allowed to get on / remain on the train,

We operate a “Walk up walk on” service, this is a national policy and part of our franchise requirements.

(2) why the conductor didn't check tickets which also has the effect of reassuring people from a public safety viewpoint.

I would like to briefly explain the duties of the conductor and why they may have not collected fares during your journey. The responsibilities of the conductor are three-fold, with the safety of the customers on board taking the highest priority, then the opening/closing of the train doors and adherence to the scheduled departure times and finally the selling of tickets to those who have departed from a station without such facilities. As such, if the collecting of fares would hinder the other two duties (namely the timely arrival and departure of the train in question) they may choose not to do so in order to make sure that they have time to allow everyone to alight and board.

(3) why he was unaware of the incident if cctv was available to him,

CCTV isn’t monitored on board of our services, the footage is recorded and stored in a central database and reviewed as and when requested.

(4) what is your policy had conductor been aware of the situation

The conductor would have made contact with our cleaning team to make them aware of the incident and arranged to meet them at a station where appropriate to clean the service. If the conductor had deemed the passenger to be a nuisance and wanted them removing from the service they can contact the British Transport Police.

(5) what can passengers like myself do in such situations.

In situations where you may feel unsafe or under threat you can discretely phone the British Transport Police (BTP) on 0300 123 9103 (emergencies), 0300 123 2211 (non-urgent) or text them on 61016. This will alert them to the incident and enable them to assist you and provide the most appropriate action. If the conductor is in the cabin and you feel the need to bring something to their attention please feel free to seek them out.

I am sincerely sorry for any inconvenience and distress caused by this incident and we take the safety of our passengers very seriously. Having reviewed your comments regarding the incident, whilst I understand your displeasure we are not taking legal proceedings against the individual in question.

 

[Darandio]

Someone was sick on a train, and you went to your MP??!!!! What next? Daily Mail? Jeremy Kyle?

I'm interested to know your thoughts on their reply, which parts aren't you happy with? And the latter part in particular, you demanded legal action against someone?

 

[BestWestern]

I get the impression that the issue is with the lack of action from the Guard on board. It would, I suggest, depend whether the Guard was genuinely unaware of the situation, or just couldn't be bothered to deal with it accordingly, as to whether the complaint is justified. I would agree that the latter is unacceptable. I would add that if the Guard was genuinely unaware, but only because they couldn't be bothered to patrol the train at reasonable intervals, that is also poor.

Either way, you will never get a response from the TOC saying "sorry our Guard was lazy", because companies don't do that. You will get a possible explanation, which may or may not be the true case, because a company will give staff the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean, however, that the matter will not be raised internally (nor does it guarantee that it will).

 

[Hadders]

There doesn't appear to be anything different in the response from Northern from what you've already been told in this thread. The response doesn't say the conductor should intervene and remove the person from the train (which is the response I suspect you were seeking)

It's not ideal but sometimes these things happen. Whatever the rights and wrongs the police are highly unlikely to send an officer to deal with someone whose thrown up on a train.

 

[kuepper]

Someone was sick on a train, and you went to your MP??!!!! What next? Daily Mail? Jeremy Kyle?

I'm interested to know your thoughts on their reply, which parts aren't you happy with? And the latter part in particular, you demanded legal action against someone?

No I didn't write to my MP because someone was sick on a train nor did I demand legal action against someone. I wrote to my MP about various matters to do with NRC - late, cancelled, and dirty trains; 20% fare hike on local fares; non-payment of my delay repay claim after 2 months; and their failure to respond to my 5 questions in relation to incidents of drunken behaviour on their trains. I'm satisfied I've now got a reply to the latter which addresses the issues I raised, it just confirms that providing a decent safe service for passengers is not part of their ethos.

 

[455driver]

it just confirms that providing a decent safe service for passengers is not part of their ethos.

What do you suggest should be done to correct this, bearing in mind the Guard is one person?

 

[Clip]

No I didn't write to my MP because someone was sick on a train nor did I demand legal action against someone. I wrote to my MP about various matters to do with NRC - late, cancelled, and dirty trains; 20% fare hike on local fares; non-payment of my delay repay claim after 2 months; and their failure to respond to my 5 questions in relation to incidents of drunken behaviour on their trains. I'm satisfied I've now got a reply to the latter which addresses the issues I raised, it just confirms that providing a decent safe service for passengers is not part of their ethos.

I would politely suggest that getting you from A to B without you being involved in a serious incident shows that they do provide a decent and safe service.

Ok the extra bits of delay repay and delays to trains isnt good but there are other avenues to go trhough before you go to your MP.

As people have mentioned before - theres a lack of Police on the railway and they can be on every train every night and be at stations so where do you find the balance and if you want more then are you prepared to pay more for them?

Im sure my colleagues in the guard grade would agree that late night trains can be boisterous and they have to evaluate whether they will inflame a situation on their trains which could lead to them being assaulted and thats a no no. Or do you think that they should put themselves in harms way to satisfy your need to be mollycoddled on the way home?

You want to try being on a DOO train which doesnt have a guard. You may learn the essence of moving to another carriage.

 

[the101]

Make of it what you will, I've received a 2nd response from NRC after complaining to my MP...

I do not wish to sound disrespectful but by pursuing what is a trivial matter at best in this way, you are wasting the time of both your MP and Northern that both could spend on other, much more important matters involving other people.

Your complaint is not as important as you think it is. It is trivial in the grand scheme of things and you would do well to have some consideration for others who do have genuine complaints.

As has already been said, if you can't handle dealing with other people who may not act in the manner that you would like, do not use public transport.

 

[cuccir]

I do not wish to sound disrespectful but by pursuing what is a trivial matter at best in this way, you are wasting the time of both your MP and Northern that both could spend on other, much more important matters involving other people.

Your complaint is not as important as you think it is. It is trivial in the grand scheme of things and you would do well to have some consideration for others who do have genuine complaints.

As has already been said, if you can't handle dealing with other people who may not act in the manner that you would like, do not use public transport.

As noted, though, the incident in this thread was only one of the issues that Kuepper complained about. I actually think that the response he/she got with regards to drunkeness was pretty comprehensive and pretty good - like 455driver, I can't really see what else TOCs can do, without significantly increasing running costs, that is, without employing a lot more staff.

We're often quick in society to blame those who are bold enough to complain when they're not happy, but it's usually these people who get results. With regards to this issue I don't see there being much wrong with the TOCs responses, but I think people are well within their rights to raise what they see as an issue.

 

[al78]

We're often quick in society to blame those who are bold enough to complain when they're not happy,

The standard make excuses for the perpetrator, blame the victim.

 

[6Gman]

Make of it what you will, I've received a 2nd response from NRC after complaining to my MP:

(1)why the drunk was allowed to get on / remain on the train,

We operate a “Walk up walk on” service, this is a national policy and part of our franchise requirements.

Slightly puzzled by this part. I don't often travel on late night trains these days but occasionally catch an ATW train out of Manchester after 2200. In my experience passengers are required to enter through a single, manned door to ensure - presumably - passengers are ticketed and fit to travel.

Surely it's only "walk up walk on" if you meet the requirements to travel?

 

[BestWestern]

Slightly puzzled by this part. I don't often travel on late night trains these days but occasionally catch an ATW train out of Manchester after 2200. In my experience passengers are required to enter through a single, manned door to ensure - presumably - passengers are ticketed and fit to travel.

Surely it's only "walk up walk on" if you meet the requirements to travel?

That will be something that certain Guards choose to do, rather than a TOC policy.

 

[LowLevel]

Checking tickets and passengers at the door is something we have had to institute on a few routes now (Nottingham to Worksop and Grantham and Lincoln to Grimsby).

Nearly every week we have trouble which sometimes you manage and sometimes you don't. The last vomit comet I worked resulted in 3 arrests on the platform, two big puddles of sick in the carriages and a near riot on board which I resolved by encouraging one group to leave the train a stop early.

Bearing in mind this is replicated in most large towns and cities in the streets I'm unsure why people expect the trains to be different.

We try our best but at the end of the day I'm armed with a torch, a ticket machine and a t key. I don't have a stab vest and I don't have a baton, or back up at the end of a radio. BTP do their best but they're cripplingly undermanned and a simple arrest can take an officer out of the picture for ages at the custody suite.

The old days when the guard could get away with a bit of rough and tumble if they saw fit are gone - using your t key as a knuckle duster (very effective) or hitting someone over the head with a ticket machine would probably see you in court.

I'm no shrinking violet and I'm happy to wade into most situations but this is Britain and I have to exercise my discretion as to which battles to take on.

 

[455driver]

The old days when the guard could get away with a bit of rough and tumble if they saw fit are gone - using your t key as a knuckle duster (very effective) or hitting someone over the head with a ticket machine would probably see you in court.

I'm no shrinking violet and I'm happy to wade into most situations but this is Britain and I have to exercise my discretion as to which battles to take on.

Try any of that and the TOC will wave their confrontation policy under your nose and wave bye bye as you leave the room, you will get zero back up.

 

[Llanigraham]

You forgot your Bardic Lamp, LowLevel!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Try any of that and the TOC will wave their confrontation policy under your nose and wave bye bye as you leave the room, you will get zero back up.

Exactly.

Had my fingers burnt myself by that "policy."

 

[BestWestern]

You forgot your Bardic Lamp, LowLevel!

'Toclite' these days. Not nearly as effective!

 

[LowLevel]

Look at you posh people with your Toclites, I'm still struggling along with a Halo lamp

I do have a couple of bardics knocking around but they're a bit big and heavy to go in a modern day kit bag!

 

[BestWestern]

Look at you posh people with your Toclites, I'm still struggling along with a Halo lamp

I do have a couple of bardics knocking around but they're a bit big and heavy to go in a modern day kit bag!

A Halo is much better than a Toclite; do you wanna swap?!

 

[jazz10]

Twice in recent weeks I have experienced alcohol linked anti social behaviour on local trains run by Northern Railway Company.

In the 1st incident a middle aged drunk got up from his seat and vomited in front of the doors for about 5 minutes and went back and sat down as if nothing had happened. With the movement of the train the slurry of vomit slowly spread itself across the door spaces and down the aisle. No sign of a conductor for whole journey though there was one in the rear cabin (I was in the front section of the front carriage of 3). I phoned Northern to complain that the conductor hadn't done his job, and what were they going to do about the incident as presumably the incident/culprit was caught on the train or station cctv which there are signs to say is there for passenger safety, and what is their policy in such situations. Their response was a) 'maybe he was ill" -which doesn't make any sense as the toilet was just as near as the door, b) I should have drawn staff's attention to it-which I couldn't do without distracting the driver or pulling the emergency cord, and c) "I don't know if the train cctv was working or if it was how it operates". Dissatisfied and furious i wrote to Northern and got a response that told me all about their cleaning regime but ignoring the main issues I had raised.

In the 2nd incident I boarded in the Online dui classes rear and a group of noisy youths with pint glasses and bottles of booze blocked the aisle so I had to exit one door and come in another to get a seat. The conductor 'had words' with them but they kept their drinks and I got abuse from them simply because I had turned to look so I moved carriages and had a very uncomfortable journey wondering if I might suffer physical abuse.

Is there a general policy / regulation about such incidents ?

hi
Drinking alcohol will not be prohibited on the UK train network, a safety regulator confirmed today after reports that it could be banned.

Buying or consuming booze on board trains will not be outlawed and reports saying that it would be are “totally wrong,” the Rail Safety Standards Board confirmed to the Independent.

Despite media reports that “pre-loading” party passengers will no longer be allowed to get a head-start to intoxication by drinking during their journeys, it emerges that this is not actually the case.

The reason for the alleged ban was the number of fatalities that had occurred on the network with drunkenness being a cause.