Drunkenness / Alcohol consumption policy?

[kuepper]

Twice in recent weeks I have experienced alcohol linked anti social behaviour on local trains run by Northern Railway Company.

In the 1st incident a middle aged drunk got up from his seat and vomited in front of the doors for about 5 minutes and went back and sat down as if nothing had happened. With the movement of the train the slurry of vomit slowly spread itself across the door spaces and down the aisle. No sign of a conductor for whole journey though there was one in the rear cabin (I was in the front section of the front carriage of 3). I phoned Northern to complain that the conductor hadn't done his job, and what were they going to do about the incident as presumably the incident/culprit was caught on the train or station cctv which there are signs to say is there for passenger safety, and what is their policy in such situations. Their response was a) 'maybe he was ill" -which doesn't make any sense as the toilet was just as near as the door, b) I should have drawn staff's attention to it-which I couldn't do without distracting the driver or pulling the emergency cord, and c) "I don't know if the train cctv was working or if it was how it operates". Dissatisfied and furious i wrote to Northern and got a response that told me all about their cleaning regime but ignoring the main issues I had raised.

In the 2nd incident I boarded in the rear and a group of noisy youths with pint glasses and bottles of booze blocked the aisle so I had to exit one door and come in another to get a seat. The conductor 'had words' with them but they kept their drinks and I got abuse from them simply because I had turned to look so I moved carriages and had a very uncomfortable journey wondering if I might suffer physical abuse.

Is there a general policy / regulation about such incidents ?

 

[Darandio]

b) I should have drawn staff's attention to it-which I couldn't do without distracting the driver or pulling the emergency cord,

I thought the guard was in the rear cab?

Although I guess you could have approached the guy yourself, then you might have potentially then seen why a guard may elect to stay in the safety of the rear cab and not rang up to tell them he wasn't doing his job properly.

I'm not saying the above is right or wrong and it provokes huge debate on here, but staff assaults seem to be on the increase (or at least seem to be reported more) so in all honesty, I don't blame them.

It's all very unpleasant, it isn't nice to be on a train when something like that happens but i'd have just moved.

 

[najaB]

Is there a general policy / regulation about such incidents ?

Railway Byelaw 4

4. Intoxication and possession of intoxicating liquor

1. No person shall enter or remain on the railway where such person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway as a result of being in a state of intoxication.
2. Where reasonable notice is, or has been, given prohibiting intoxicating liquor on any train service, no person shall have any intoxicating liquor with him on it, or attempt to enter such a train with intoxicating liquor with him.
3. Where an authorised person reasonably believes that any person is unfit to enter or remain on the railway, or has with him intoxicating liquor contrary to Byelaw 4(2), an authorised person may:
   • require him to leave the railway; and
   • prevent him entering or remaining on the railway until an authorised person is satisfied that he has no intoxicating liquor with him and/or is no longer in an unfit condition.

TOCs may impose specific rules as and when they see fit. For example, Scotrail has banned drinking alcohol and/or the carrying of open containers of alcoholic beverages between 9pm and 10am.

 

[DarloRich]

May I ask - what exactly do you expect northern to do?

P's please don't quote bylaws - the offer very little in a practical on theground sense

 

[a_c_skinner]

" ignoring the main issues I had raised"

I'm glad to see the franchise change didn't occasion job losses in the complaints department.

 

[BestWestern]

The Guard should have been patrolling the train, leaving the interior of a carriage as a public health hazard is not acceptable. The response offered sounds absolutely dire, frankly.

 

[DarloRich]

The Guard should have been patrolling the train, leaving the interior of a carriage as a public health hazard is not acceptable. The response offered sounds absolutely dire, frankly.

Agreed - but what is he going to do that precise second short of take therein out of service?

 

[AlterEgo]

The Guard should have been patrolling the train, leaving the interior of a carriage as a public health hazard is not acceptable. The response offered sounds absolutely dire, frankly.

Some TOCs have a "Work Safe" procedure which gets abused, unfortunately.

 

[Mag_seven]

If the RMT wants guards on trains for "safety" reasons then so be it but then they must not hide away in the back cab when the going gets difficult.

 

[kuepper]

I thought the guard was in the rear cab?.

He was but as I said I was in the front section of the front carriage. I would have had to walk through the trail of vomit and past the culprit to get in a different carriage or reach the conductor (who I kept expecting to come and check tickets at anytime anyway). I do blame the conductor for not bothering to check tickets when the train is only about 10% full and it's 2246. Don't they or someone in a central hub watch a live stream of the carriage activity to act on such incidents? I assume conductors are trained to deal with such situations thats why i wondered if there was a national policy etc

 

[TheEdge]

I do blame the conductor for not bothering to check tickets when the train is only about 10% and it's 2246. Don't they or someone in a central hub watch a live stream of the carriage activity to act on such incidents

No, there is no-one sat watching the (absolutely vast) amounts of video that CCTV camera's record live.

I assume conductors are trained to deal with such situations thats why i wondered if there was a national policy etc

Conductors are rather between a rock and a hard place in this sort of situation. They are expected to both sort out these situations and not put themselves at risk in these sorts of situations, go figure. Also its worth bearing in mind that uniform acts like a red rag to quite a lot of people in that state, to you they may appear drunk and fairly calm (like person 1) but will suddenly get aggressive to a member of staff, I've been on the receiving end of that enough. Same with the groups, asking them to quiet down can often get their backs up. Its not as cut and dry as you think.

 

[kuepper]

May I ask - what exactly do you expect northern to do?

P's please don't quote bylaws - the offer very little in a practical on theground sense

I expect Northern to at least tell me a) if the conductor should have been checking people's tickets and monitoring the carriages for obstructions, unattended bags, glass bottles rolling around etc. b) what the conductor should do in such situations as I've described, c) what steps are they taking to identify ppl who commit ant social behaviour, d) what is the point in their cctv, does it monitor in real time and who sees it if it does

 

[kuepper]

Thanks najaB. At least I know something exists on this issue on paper at least

 

[BestWestern]

Agreed - but what is he going to do that precise second short of take therein out of service?

Move non-****heads away, hazard tape the offending area, lock out the affected doors to prevent people from boarding and walking straight into it, and make the appropriate phone calls, for a start!

 

[kuepper]

No, there is no-one sat watching the (absolutely vast) amounts of video that CCTV camera's record live.



Conductors are rather between a rock and a hard place in this sort of situation. They are expected to both sort out these situations and not put themselves at risk in these sorts of situations, go figure. Also its worth bearing in mind that uniform acts like a red rag to quite a lot of people in that state, to you they may appear drunk and fairly calm (like person 1) but will suddenly get aggressive to a member of staff, I've been on the receiving end of that enough. Same with the groups, asking them to quiet down can often get their backs up. Its not as cut and dry as you think.

well what is the point of the cctv then? I have been on a train in similar circumstances to the second incident previously and the conductor has obviously contacted the police who are waiting at a later station to help turf the drunks off (officially they're there to prevent a breach of the peace I think) so it's quite clear. What is the point in having laws if they're not enforced. If the drunks had been turfed off the train they'd think twice about repeating their behaviour

 

[BestWestern]

Some TOCs have a "Work Safe" procedure which gets abused, unfortunately.

All TOCs, I would imagine, along with most other customer facing employers. The problem is with the individual (and the management thereof!), rather than with the policy.

 

[Hadders]

I expect Northern to at least tell me a) if the conductor should have been checking people's tickets and monitoring the carriages for obstructions, unattended bags, glass bottles rolling around etc. b) what the conductor should do in such situations as I've described, c) what steps are they taking to identify ppl who commit ant social behaviour, d) what is the point in their cctv, does it monitor in real time and who sees it if it does

The first priority of the guard is the safety of the train. It's never nice to have this sort of situation happen on a train but had the guard have intervened then the situation might have got a whole lot worse.

CCTV acts as a deterrent and to record incidents. It isn't viewed in real time.

While I don't doubt this experience was unpleasant it's not exactly the crime of the century. Don't expect anything to happen. The police certainly wouldn't view it as a priority - they have far more urgent things to deal with than someone chucking up on a train.

 

[TheEdge]

well what is the point of the cctv then?

Unlike the films in reality it is both a deterrent and used after an event for identification or investigation.

I have been on a train in similar circumstances to the second incident previously and the conductor has obviously contacted the police who are waiting at a later station to help turf the drunks off (officially they're there to prevent a breach of the peace I think) so it's quite clear.

Depends on the situation. If they had tickets and it was a Saturday night and all they are doing is being loud then there is no real reason to get involved. If they are being abusive, don't have tickets or something similar then maybe its time to get the police involved.

What is the point in having laws if they're not enforced. If the drunks had been turfed off the train they'd think twice about repeating their behaviour

As has been already said the BTP are not going to investigate a drunk bloke. Byelaw 4 is pointless, it is totally unenforceable in most situations. As to turfing off the train, trust me, it isn't a deterrent as the same people keep doing it. Also its frowned upon these days, if someone was simply turfed off the train, regardless of how they were behaving, and then got injured then the guard and TOC find themselves in trouble for breaching a duty of care. Its ridiculous but its true.

 

[BestWestern]

The first priority of the guard is the safety of the train. It's never nice to have this sort of situation happen on a train but had the guard have intervened then the situation might have got a whole lot worse.

That's a safety issue though chap, it's a biohazard.

A cruicial pillar, if you will, of ensuring the safety of the train, is patrolling it at regular intervals to identify problems. There is only so much 'safety' you can do from the back cab! Loads of services are a ballache when there a drunken muppets about, it's very rarely an excuse to avoid entering the saloons. Intervention doesn't have to mean giving someone a talking to, "Are you okay there chap" is a helpful sort of approach when somebody is clearly unwell, even if they are clearly a drunken moron. If it escalates, then you act accordingly of course.

 

[CC 72100]

Move non-****heads away, hazard tape the offending area, lock out the affected doors to prevent people from boarding and walking straight into it, and make the appropriate phone calls, for a start!

Ah good old Hazard tape, solves everything. Got a problem? Hazard tape it. Want to cordon off an area? Hazard tape it. Need to stick something back together? Hazard tape it.... no wonder some people go through rolls very quickly!

(Seriously though, spot-on post)

 

[Master29]

Really hate pxssheads on trains. Really more should be done to tackle this. I remonstrated with some guy who made a quip about my weight. I asked him if we could continue this conversation when the train stops and the pratt just backed off. To say it isn`t a priority is nonsense. It is a criminal act because you feel threatened by their behaviour hence why staff often choose to not get involved. Staff need to be protected from these bottom wipes. To tell the truth I`d have made the guy drink it.

 

[AlterEgo]

All TOCs, I would imagine, along with most other customer facing employers. The problem is with the individual (and the management thereof!), rather than with the policy.

Agreed. The policy itself is sound but some employees abuse it.

 

[fowler9]

It is a complicated issue. As I understand it it is not the job of the guard to actually act like the police on the train. If it was they would get paid a lot more and have some kind of warrant card. If someone throws up on the train what is the guard going to do? Take the train out of service? If entrances are blocked by a big gang of lads with bottles behaving aggressively what is the guard going to do apart do apart from call the police.

When people make a complaint and demand a detailed response about what is going to happen in the future to stop it happening again what are they expecting? A response saying that in future all guards will be like Neo in the Matrix? Some customers have very unrealistic expectations fro making a complaint, they actually want the whole world to revolve around them and to certainly not have to pay for the increased costs, for starters providing the detailed response they want, let alone a complete ban on booze anywhere, football fans and anything else they don't like.

 

[abn444]

Has anyone thought about doing this or would that not be appropriate in these situations?
https://www.btp.police.uk/61016_text_service1.aspx

 

[BestWestern]

It is a complicated issue. As I understand it it is not the job of the guard to actually act like the police on the train.

....

If someone throws up on the train what is the guard going to do? Take the train out of service?

....


When people make a complaint and demand a detailed response about what is going to happen in the future to stop it happening again what are they expecting? A response saying that in future all guards will be like Neo in the Matrix? Some customers have very unrealistic expectations fro making a complaint...

A Guard is most definitely not a bouncer, agreed. They are, however, the first line of defence on board, and as such should be visible and proactive.

If a carriage is covered in bodily fluids, be it vomit, blood, urine or whatever, then yes it needs to come out of service. In the immediate short term, the affected area needs to be taped off and people moved elsewhere. Doing nothing about is not an acceptable response; aside from the obvious unpleasantness, various nasties can be caught from bodily fluids.

Some people make genuinely incredible complaints, but an expectation to see the on board staff when on board a train is, I strongly feel, perfectly reasonable.

 

[DarloRich]

Move non-****heads away, hazard tape the offending area, lock out the affected doors to prevent people from boarding and walking straight into it, and make the appropriate phone calls, for a start!

Cheers - just interested what could be done in reality. The practical v the theory if you like. The gourd isn't, of course, clairvoyant!

 

[Bromley boy]

Twice in recent weeks I have experienced alcohol linked anti social behaviour on local trains run by Northern Railway Company.

In the 1st incident a middle aged drunk got up from his seat and vomited in front of the doors for about 5 minutes and went back and sat down as if nothing had happened. With the movement of the train the slurry of vomit slowly spread itself across the door spaces and down the aisle. No sign of a conductor for whole journey though there was one in the rear cabin (I was in the front section of the front carriage of 3). I phoned Northern to complain that the conductor hadn't done his job, and what were they going to do about the incident as presumably the incident/culprit was caught on the train or station cctv which there are signs to say is there for passenger safety, and what is their policy in such situations. Their response was a) 'maybe he was ill" -which doesn't make any sense as the toilet was just as near as the door, b) I should have drawn staff's attention to it-which I couldn't do without distracting the driver or pulling the emergency cord, and c) "I don't know if the train cctv was working or if it was how it operates". Dissatisfied and furious i wrote to Northern and got a response that told me all about their cleaning regime but ignoring the main issues I had raised.

In the 2nd incident I boarded in the rear and a group of noisy youths with pint glasses and bottles of booze blocked the aisle so I had to exit one door and come in another to get a seat. The conductor 'had words' with them but they kept their drinks and I got abuse from them simply because I had turned to look so I moved carriages and had a very uncomfortable journey wondering if I might suffer physical abuse.

Is there a general policy / regulation about such incidents ?

1. I agree this sounds a bit poor. Locking the coach out of use would have been a more appropriate response. CCTV etc is irrelevant really as no crime has been committed.

Unfortunately there is a minority within society who behave worse than animals whether due to drunkenness, drug addiction or whatever. Some people may soil themselves due to physical disabilities. Not nice for anyone concerned, but can't be helped. Just the nature of the beast when it comes to transporting the public.

2. You state the guard had "had words" with the offending louts. What more could he do beyond this? A guard is not a policeman. He can't arrest people or physically kick them off the train. The only option open to him would have been to hold the train at a station until the BTP showed up, incurring huge delays. He may have judged that further intervention would inflame tensions and expose him to personal risk.

It strikes me your complaint in relation to 2 would be better directed at the anti-social passengers rather than the TOC and its staff.

 

[DarloRich]

I expect Northern to at least tell me a) if the conductor should have been checking people's tickets and monitoring the carriages for obstructions, unattended bags, glass bottles rolling around etc. b) what the conductor should do in such situations as I've described, c) what steps are they taking to identify ppl who commit ant social behaviour, d) what is the point in their cctv, does it monitor in real time and who sees it if it does

How does any of that help you? Did you seek out the gaurd? Did you do you anything?

Simple answers:

A) yes after ensuring they discharge their primary duty of ensuring the safety of the train
B) see others answers
C) nothing - someone vommed which I am fairly certain isn't a criminal offence - however did you make a complaint to the Police? Some real world perspective helps about what is a major problem and what is a horrible annoyance
D) it won't be monitored 24/7 in real time. How many people do you think that would need?

 

[fowler9]

On Northern Rail putting hazard tape around some vomit will often mean taking half of a two car unit out of service. Some of these late night 2 car units are actually very busy on a weekend night.

As for people expecting to see an onboard presence I hope every customer in the Southern area (and in the future Merseytravel area) will be supporting strikes against DOO, they won't be though will they.

 

[TrainfanBen]

Has anyone thought about doing this or would that not be appropriate in these situations?
https://www.btp.police.uk/61016_text_service1.aspx

Useless if the incident is going to get responded to by a local force rather than the BTP, and it does happen...