Drop Out Rate for Trainee Train Drivers

[mstrwvr]

I'm currently in the position of applying for Trainee Train Driver roles, and I'm just curious: once applicants get accepted into the training program, what is the success rate like? Do some people find they can't hack it and drop out? Do the majority of people who've done the training pass the final assessment? If you don't pass it, do you get another chance, and if so how many? Are there those people who just can't pass it, and if so what happens to them.

Not that I'm a pessimist about my chances....

 

[baz962]

I'm currently in the position of applying for Trainee Train Driver roles, and I'm just curious: once applicants get accepted into the training program, what is the success rate like? Do some people find they can't hack it and drop out? Do the majority of people who've done the training pass the final assessment? If you don't pass it, do you get another chance, and if so how many? Are there those people who just can't pass it, and if so what happens to them.

Not that I'm a pessimist about my chances....

Some companies give you one go at the final assessment and others give you two goes. The occasional person drops out. Very few people fail twice.

 

[Efini92]

It’s rare that people don’t meet the standard

 

[ComUtoR]

It’s rare that people don’t meet the standard

Depends on the TOC. Some are more supportive than others. At my TOC. People fail all the time.

 

[mstrwvr]

Depends on the TOC. Some are more supportive than others. At my TOC. People fail all the time.

And what happens then? They leave the organisation after a wasted year, or are they redeployed into another role?

 

[Jon1930]

16 years I've been on the railway, 2 trainees at my depot did not make it. So the majority will. When you start the drivers course, you must put your life on hold for a year. Go home each evening and spend some time going over everything you went over in the classroom, weekend go over everything for that week. You get some trainnees that have the wrong attitude thinking once you've passed all the assessments and start the job it's easy, there has been a few that have failed. There are also some that have been great in the classroom but just could not handle the driving (handling stage).

 

[ComUtoR]

And what happens then? They leave the organisation after a wasted year, or are they redeployed into another role?

At my TOC if you failed rules, generally you are out of a job. Do not pass go, do not collect £200

If you failed during manual handling it varies considerably. Most people are given 12 weeks to find alternative employment (internally) This is not guaranteed as you still need to go through the relevant recruitment process. Internals tend to go back to their previous roles. Again, not guaranteed.

IF you fail after passing out, your really French Connected. It's really not good.

 

[Economist]

IF you fail after passing out, your really French Connected. It's really not good.

Are we talking about biennial/periodic assessments here? I always thought at most TOCs people got another go if they failed those?

 

[ComUtoR]

Rules - Pretty much back to unemployment/previous job
Traction - Depends on who you are and how bad you failed. On the edge for sure.
Manual handling - 12 weeks to find another job
Post Qualified - Very tricky. Thin ice for sure but not many who mess up (incident wise) in in their post qualified period stay with the TOC. I've seen a few horror stories recently that kinda make me die inside.

Are we talking about biennial/periodic assessments here? I always thought at most TOCs people got another go if they failed those?

I really never thought I'd see the day where a Driver would be binned due to their (A4/Periodic/Annual) assessments being failed. A few years ago at my TOC a Driver (at my Depot) got something silly like 64% on his assessment. He was given 2 weeks to brush up and resit or be out of a job. I have never seen or heard anyone losing their job to their annual assessments but after that event. I've never taken it for granted.

I've learned that failure is very real. Trainees drop out at all levels. It tapers off as you go through the process but it does happen. Some TOCs push their Trainees to the limit and give them every change to succeed. Multiple goes at each level and doing everything they can to ensure a Trainee passes. Those TOCs are they ones where people will report failure as being rare.

I am neither an optimist or a pessimist. I am a realist. It does happen. Be prepared, work hard, never give up, maintain your standards.

 

[choochoochoo]

I really never thought I'd see the day where a Driver would be binned due to their (A4/Periodic/Annual) assessments being failed. A few years ago at my TOC a Driver (at my Depot) got something silly like 64% on his assessment. He was given 2 weeks to brush up and resit or be out of a job. I have never seen or heard anyone losing their job to their annual assessments but after that event. I've never taken it for granted.

Did this driver ruffle a few management feathers? If a company want rid off you then I'd expect this kind of treatment. But if you're the kind of driver who turns up, does their duty and doesn't tread on anyone's toes, I'd expect TOCs being more lenient.

 

[ComUtoR]

Did this driver ruffle a few management feathers? If a company want rid off you then I'd expect this kind of treatment. But if you're the kind of driver who turns up, does their duty and doesn't tread on anyone's toes, I'd expect TOCs being more lenient.

Nope. Just my TOC taking the usual B'stweard approach. Times have changed since the days of jobs for the boys and a few ticks in the right box and then a beer down the pub.

 

[choochoochoo]

Nope. Just my TOC taking the usual B'stweard approach. Times have changed since the days of jobs for the boys and a few ticks in the right box and then a beer down the pub.

Wow. That is harsh. Are your depots oversubscribed ?

 

[SlimJim1694]

Depends on the TOC. Some are more supportive than others. At my TOC. People fail all the time.

Yep. Its cut-throat. Even when you've been qualified and incident-free for years they are breathing down your neck. Picking up +1 mph on a download of a unit type known to have crap analogue speedos....

At my TOC if you failed rules, generally you are out of a job. Do not pass go, do not collect £200

If you failed during manual handling it varies considerably. Most people are given 12 weeks to find alternative employment (internally) This is not guaranteed as you still need to go through the relevant recruitment process. Internals tend to go back to their previous roles. Again, not guaranteed.

IF you fail after passing out, your really French Connected. It's really not good.

Speaking for one particular TOC only...
I agree with this completely. The craziest thing is that many of the managers contributing to the toxic culture only went into management on this TOC because they couldn't handle the reality of being a driver.... most of the best drivers I've known did the sensible thing and left the company.

Ive seen people sacked after a couple of incidents, I've seen people allowed to continue driving after things much worse than others have been sacked for. I've known some trainees get binned without the company blinking an eye while others cause a massive stir, give loads of cause for concern and still get through the course.

 

[Applepie356]

It’s a bit concerning that some TOC’s don’t give you support during training and even post-training.

I’m guessing they have the attitude of “we’ll replace you in a heartbeat, there’s thousands of people who want to be in your position now”

 

[HLE]

There is support. The one strike rule is harsh in my opinion and seems to be limited to one TOC down south.

But there comes a time where its simply obvious that some people aren't cut out to be train drivers. Herein lies the issue. Too many get through and don't realise what the job involves, and how seriously things like SOL incidents are taken. Most trainees would agree the training is excellent.

I remember being sat in the OPC centre waiting room at Watford and being the only non-copper of the externals. The look on their faces when myself and a guard described what the training and job involved, was priceless. It doesn't dawn on most that your on your own up front and don't have a colleague next to you for back up. The post incident inquiry will take days, weeks and months when you mess up. The time taken to make the decision that caused it takes seconds.

Putting your life on hold for 18 months while you train for a 57k a year job is nothing. Try doing it for 4 years minimum for a job paying 20k plus to start with, if your lucky. I've been there.

 

[43066]

It’s a bit concerning that some TOC’s don’t give you support during training and even post-training.

I’m guessing they have the attitude of “we’ll replace you in a heartbeat, there’s thousands of people who want to be in your position now”

There is some support. But that’s largely because, by the time you’re in training, you represent an investment and it’s in the TOC’s interests to pass you out if they can.

But if you have a bad attitude, or don't make the grade, you’ll be out. Five of my group of eight ended up with keys. Two went during rules, one was sadly unsuccessful at both attempts of his final assessment.

 

[SLV]

Wow. That is harsh. Are your depots oversubscribed ?

A driver gets 64% in an assessment and him eventually going is harsh? There are set processes, he will have been rebriefed and reassessed, if he still can’t meet the standard what do you think they should do?

If it’s the online type of assessment I think it is it’s a shocking score and he shouldn’t have been out on his own with such a poor score - sounds dangerous. Granted we only have a snippet of information, my TOC would give longer than 2 weeks and would look to redeploy as the first option.

OP - to answer your question firstly every TOC will differ. The majority of train drivers roles are now under apprenticeships with a really solid training plan/framework, which is audited externally to insure consistency of delivery and designed to get you to where they you need to be. Can only speak for the 2 TOCs I have experience of but this has always been the case anyway, a lot of time and money will be invested into you wherever you go and you are recruited as ultimately there is a train plan to meet. the material and support is there, as others have said above you do have to put the work in.

While you often see a lot of bitching about the driver recruitment tests on here they are designed to check you are up to the standard. I have known one or two people drop out in the first year as not for them, eg didn’t like shifts/depot environment or responsibility - it’s usually people that were earning similar money in their previous job.
Ultimately - if you put the work in and apply yourself you will be fine

 

[RBSN]

Starting as a trainee you need to give it your all and life takes a backseat for a year.

Listen, take notes and ask lot of questions. Talk to the other trainees. Smile. Breath and work hard on your home work - it will serve you well!

Most trainees pass but the real question is how hard or easy your make the process for yourself.

 

[choochoochoo]

A driver gets 64% in an assessment and him eventually going is harsh? There are set processes, he will have been rebriefed and reassessed, if he still can’t meet the standard what do you think they should do?

If it’s the online type of assessment I think it is it’s a shocking score and he shouldn’t have been out on his own with such a poor score - sounds dangerous. Granted we only have a snippet of information, my TOC would give longer than 2 weeks and would look to redeploy as the first option.

OP - to answer your question firstly every TOC will differ. The majority of train drivers roles are now under apprenticeships with a really solid training plan/framework, which is audited externally to insure consistency of delivery and designed to get you to where they you need to be. Can only speak for the 2 TOCs I have experience of but this has always been the case anyway, a lot of time and money will be invested into you wherever you go and you are recruited as ultimately there is a train plan to meet. the material and support is there, as others have said above you do have to put the work in.

While you often see a lot of bitching about the driver recruitment tests on here they are designed to check you are up to the standard. I have known one or two people drop out in the first year as not for them, eg didn’t like shifts/depot environment or responsibility - it’s usually people that were earning similar money in their previous job.
Ultimately - if you put the work in and apply yourself you will be fine

Yes it is harsh. I know you're supposed to maintain your knowledge. However, I'd say it is also the TOCs fault. A TOC should be bringing a driver in for more recurrent assessment more frequently. Annual/Bi Annual rules assessments are farcical. It should be driver in a simulator every 6 months to cover out-of-course working. Just like airlines do with pilots in simulator.

But guess what the TOCs are too stingy to take productive drivers out of the roster to do this. Or pay for the simulator/instructor facilities/time to do this. If you had a sim session that frequently where you had to know your rules then the skills/knowledge would be maintained. I still forget things and it's only after doing certain out-of-course actions for real that they get ingrained in your head. Real life experience can't be beaten, and the closest you can get to it is in the sim. A piece of paper/online quiz does not cut it.

 

[FastTrax]

so there is assessment each year? what does they assess? reading this thread is making me nervous especially if one leaving a safe and secure job with decent pay. yes we have to train and work hard but if one is unlucky enough to bump in to unsupportive toc then u r in hot water.

 

[43066]

Ive seen people sacked after a couple of incidents, I've seen people allowed to continue driving after things much worse than others have been sacked for. I've known some trainees get binned without the company blinking an eye while others cause a massive stir, give loads of cause for concern and still get through the course.

There’s certainly inconsistent treatment of applicants. Some get drummed out very quickly but some absolute liabilities still end up with keys. That’s down to a failure of management in hiring the wrong people to begin with (despite being spoilt for choice of applicants), and inconsistency between different DIs.

Yes it is harsh. I know you're supposed to maintain your knowledge. However, I'd say it is also the TOCs fault. A TOC should be bringing a driver in for more recurrent assessment more frequently. Annual/Bi Annual rules assessments are farcical. It should be driver in a simulator every 6 months to cover out-of-course working. Just like airlines do with pilots in simulator.

But guess what the TOCs are too stingy to take productive drivers out of the roster to do this. Or pay for the simulator/instructor facilities/time to do this. If you had a sim session that frequently where you had to know your rules then the skills/knowledge would be maintained. I still forget things and it's only after doing certain out-of-course actions for real that they get ingrained in your head. Real life experience can't be beaten, and the closest you can get to it is in the sim. A piece of paper/online quiz does not cut it.

Fully agree with all the above.

 

[craigybagel]

By and large, the recruitment process is so cut throat that most of the people who survive it are more then capable of getting through training. So the vast majority of time trainees get through and go on to have successful careers (other then at a certain TOC down south that I get more and more scared of every time it's drivers post things here!).

Even by the time you've made it to day 1 of training, the company has already invested a lot in you, and they really don't want to go through all the efforts of replacing you. Most TOCs I'm aware of will support you if you're struggling. We've had a small minority not make it at our place over the last few years but I know they were given every support possible.

Either way, the pay off of actually getting the job is well worth it, and if offered I wouldn't ever think twice about accepting.

 

[Dynamonic]

By and large, the recruitment process is so cut throat that most of the people who survive it are more then capable of getting through training. So the vast majority of time trainees get through and go on to have successful careers (other then at a certain TOC down south that I get more and more scared of every time it's drivers post things here!).

Even by the time you've made it to day 1 of training, the company has already invested a lot in you, and they really don't want to go through all the efforts of replacing you. Most TOCs I'm aware of will support you if you're struggling. We've had a small minority not make it at our place over the last few years but I know they were given every support possible.

Either way, the pay off of actually getting the job is well worth it, and if offered I wouldn't ever think twice about accepting.

This sums it up nicely for me!

Throughout the recruitment process, you're being assessed on your ability to cope with the demands of the training course, and by passing it, you will have been found to be more than capable of handling it.
During training, you'll have all the support you need to make it through, but YOU MUST put the effort in. Training school (and the job itself) is more of a lifestyle than a career. You will always live according to when your next shift is, and even after passing out, in your post-qualified period, you'll find yourself studying at home when you know you've got one of the many post-qualified assessments coming up.
If you put the effort in, work hard, then the trainers, assessors and managers will put the effort in with you too!

It is a very secure job, if you work on making it secure for yourself.

 

[ComUtoR]

so there is assessment each year? what does they assess?

The standards require that you have been assessed on EVERYTHING at least once very two years. This is normally broken up into yearly assessments but everything must be reassessed in the bi anual cycle. It is the responsibility of the employee to maintain the required standard. OTMR (downloads) happen all the time and are part of the assessment cycyle. There are also rides with your Manager on a regular basis.

It never stops. We have a safe railway in part because standards are so high and are required to be maintained. As I've said to many many Trainees. If you can't maintain your rules over 12 weeks. Imagine doing it over 12yrs.

 

[Horizon22]

At my TOC if you failed rules, generally you are out of a job. Do not pass go, do not collect £200

If you failed during manual handling it varies considerably. Most people are given 12 weeks to find alternative employment (internally) This is not guaranteed as you still need to go through the relevant recruitment process. Internals tend to go back to their previous roles. Again, not guaranteed.

IF you fail after passing out, your really French Connected. It's really not good.

I've met and seen redeployed drivers from a TOC - generally tried to shove them into any customer service role which, to be fair, they are often decent enough at. But a huge pay drop.

 

[FastTrax]

There is some support. But that’s largely because, by the time you’re in training, you represent an investment and it’s in the TOC’s interests to pass you out if they can.

But if you have a bad attitude, or don't make the grade, you’ll be out. Five of my group of eight ended up with keys. Two went during rules, one was sadly unsuccessful at both attempts of his final assessment.

out of curiosity, what does final assessment involve? rules and troubleshooting any breakdown? thanks

 

[43066]

out of curiosity, what does final assessment involve? rules and troubleshooting any breakdown? thanks

It’s driving for a day or so under assessment conditions, full rules and traction papers are done again. There’s also a sim run where you practice faults and failures.

All being well it should be largely a tick box exercise with no unpleasant surprises.

 

[357]

Yep. Its cut-throat. Even when you've been qualified and incident-free for years they are breathing down your neck. Picking up +1 mph on a download of a unit type known to have crap analogue speedos....


Speaking for one particular TOC only...
I agree with this completely. The craziest thing is that many of the managers contributing to the toxic culture only went into management on this TOC because they couldn't handle the reality of being a driver.... most of the best drivers I've known did the sensible thing and left the company.

Ive seen people sacked after a couple of incidents, I've seen people allowed to continue driving after things much worse than others have been sacked for. I've known some trainees get binned without the company blinking an eye while others cause a massive stir, give loads of cause for concern and still get through the course.

Exactly the same at my TOC. We have drivers picked up for .2 over, .4 over, .5 over... The maintenance department only guarantee the speedo to +/- 2mph

It's crazy that the speedo the driver uses is not the speedo that can give him an action plan (or worse)...

 

[ComUtoR]

out of curiosity, what does final assessment involve? rules and troubleshooting any breakdown? thanks

Ours is :

Written Assessments (multiple choice)
Full Rules (95% pass mark I think)
PTS (max two wrong, cant remember how many questions)
Traction
Fire training/Assessment (computer based) (10 questions 90% pass mark)

Driving (typically 2/3 days)
All routes driven and verified for route knowledge.
Must include dark driving

Static Duties
Attachment/Detachment
Unit Prep
Unit walkaround (Verbal Q&A)

Simulator
General Skills drive
Faults and faulures
Temp Block / Single line working
+Random DM choice

It's a long week and it can push you to your limit but you should only be assessed when you are deemed competent so yes, kinda tickboxy for the most part.

After you pass
Full assessment end of your first year and then moves to a two year cycle (everything must be covered within 2yrs).
At least 2/3 OTMR downloads every year.
Driving assessment, Sim run, Fire training, PTS (yearly)
Learning and Development day every year (typically themed by local issues or something required by the RSSB/ORR/NR etc)

 

[FastTrax]

Ours is :

Written Assessments (multiple choice)
Full Rules (95% pass mark I think)
PTS (max two wrong, cant remember how many questions)
Traction
Fire training/Assessment (computer based) (10 questions 90% pass mark)

Driving (typically 2/3 days)
All routes driven and verified for route knowledge.
Must include dark driving

Static Duties
Attachment/Detachment
Unit Prep
Unit walkaround (Verbal Q&A)

Simulator
General Skills drive
Faults and faulures
Temp Block / Single line working
+Random DM choice

It's a long week and it can push you to your limit but you should only be assessed when you are deemed competent so yes, kinda tickboxy for the most part.

After you pass
Full assessment end of your first year and then moves to a two year cycle (everything must be covered within 2yrs).
At least 2/3 OTMR downloads every year.
Driving assessment, Sim run, Fire training, PTS (yearly)
Learning and Development day every year (typically themed by local issues or something required by the RSSB/ORR/NR etc)

great info thanks.