driving side

[Phillipimo]

On both the roads and the railways vehicles travel on the left but why do drivers sit on the left in trains and on the right in cars?

I'm assuming there's an obvious answer that will make me feel pretty stupid haha

 

[richw]

I'm guessing to do with the majority of signals and markers are on the left hand side of the track?

Total guess working by logic

 

[Phillipimo]

weren't some steam locos right hand drive?

 

[jopsuk]

Sitting on the offside (right in the UK) of a car helps with judging things such as distance to vehicles on the other side of the road. By being closer to the middle of the road, you get better sight lines round more curves and corners.

 

[umontu]

weren't some steam locos right hand drive?

Some were, I believe it caused problems when they were used on other companies lines with relation to signal sighting and so forth.

The Victoria Line on LU is right hand drive.

 

[bigdelboy]

Being on the left would ...
[a] ... if on a steam engine avoid having to look over the boiler to get a better view of trackside signals etc.
[2] ... it is easier to open the window and look at the guard waving his flag ... more seriously MOST platforms are on the left and this could be useful.

I'm not a driver ... i am making suggestions ... GWR may be different ... and i really.

Hmmm ... not sure how authorative but interesting is following link: (seems to say drivers generally on the right pre-1923 ... then tendency was to put them on the left).

http://www.britishrailways.info/TRAIN AND LOCO WORKING.htm

 

[6Gman]

Some were, I believe it caused problems when they were used on other companies lines with relation to signal sighting and so forth.

I believe I'm correct in saying that the GWR was different (as ever) and placed the driver on the rhs. When Standard locos started arriving (lhs for the driver) this was a problem and contributed to the Norton Fitzwarren accident where a driver misread signals.

 

[richw]

you get better sight lines round more curves and corners.

Only left hand curves and bends.

 

[cj_1985]

IIRC its worth adding, that thanks to the EU there is a move towards a central seating position...

Whether or not it affects us in a major way remains to be seen... but I know its been common on TGVs for years, and know that most of the locos that have been produced in the last few years have moved to the more central position, with it being expected that other locos will (where they are within a certain age range) probably be fitted with new cab desks when they pass though overhauls.

 

[notadriver]

Yep most signals and boards are on the left. In France I believe they do drive on the right over there.

The central seating position would presumably obstruct a through gangway except in the case of certain Dutch and Belgian units which have a central cab that folds away upwards ?

 

[edwin_m]

Many companies, notably the GWR, did indeed put the driver on the right in steam days. It is helpful for the fireman to be on the left, because he can then use his right hand to push the shovel into the firebox. Norton Fitzwarren wasn't directly caused by signals being on the wrong side - signals for both the fast and the slow lines were placed to the left of the slows and the driver didn't realise he was reading across one track. But there were other accidents where left vs right hand drive was contributory.

French railways mostly run on the left, a legacy of the first ones having been built by Stephenson and friends. Right hand running was imposed in Alsace and Lorraine during occupation by the Prussians/Germans after the Franco-Prussian war, and continued after these territories were returned to France in 1919.

In most high speed trains the driving position is central, probably because the pointed end and difficulty of making windscreens both tough and large means that any other position would have a much poorer view. These are supposed to be interoperable across Europe so need to have good driver visibility of signs on either side of the track.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yep most signals and boards are on the left. In France I believe they do drive on the right over there.

The central seating position would presumably obstruct a through gangway except in the case of certain Dutch and Belgian units which have a central cab that folds away upwards ?

Apart from in the east of the country French trains use the left, like the UK.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Some were, I believe it caused problems when they were used on other companies lines with relation to signal sighting and so forth.

The Victoria Line on LU is right hand drive.

Yes, this is because most platforms are on the right.

 

[jopsuk]

IIRC its worth adding, that thanks to the EU there is a move towards a central seating position...

Is that actually an EU thing? or a UIC thing for High Speed Interoperability?

Didn't the APT-P have a central driving position (which led to opposition from unions as trains were still double-manned)? That first ran a year before Britain joined the EEC! Pretty sure British engineers would have made APT and HST centrally driven too, if it hadn't been for that.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is that actually an EU thing? or a UIC thing for High Speed Interoperability?

Didn't the APT-P have a central driving position (which led to opposition from unions as trains were still double-manned)? That first ran a year before Britain joined the EEC! Pretty sure British engineers would have made APT and HST centrally driven too, if it hadn't been for that.

I remember reading about the prototype HST power cars being blacklisted for a while by drivers' unions because of the central driving position, though I could be misremembering that or it could even be one of the many railway myths!

 

[Eagle]

The Victoria Line on LU is right hand drive.

Actually only a small part of it is right-hand running (between a point south of Highbury and Islington, and immediately south of Warren Street), and that was to make the cross-platform interchange at Euston easier. Of course left- and right-hand running doesn't matter at all when the two lines are in separate tube tunnels.

The Central line also runs on the right through White City.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Sitting on the offside (right in the UK) of a car helps with judging things such as distance to vehicles on the other side of the road. By being closer to the middle of the road, you get better sight lines round more curves and corners.

It also has the benefit of putting the front passenger door beside the path rather than in the middle of the road.

 

[rwebster]

Actually only a small part of it is right-hand running (between a point south of Highbury and Islington, and immediately south of Warren Street), and that was to make the cross-platform interchange at Euston easier. Of course left- and right-hand running doesn't matter at all when the two lines are in separate tube tunnels.

The Central line also runs on the right through White City.

This is correct, but is more correctly called right hand running.

What the previous poster suggested was right, in that Victoria drivers physically sit on the right. AFAIK, that's unique on London Underground. As a fully underground line nearly platforms are islands (i.e. doors open on the right) so it it would actually be highly illogical to have the driver sat anywhere else.

 

[A-driver]

I remember reading about the prototype HST power cars being blacklisted for a while by drivers' unions because of the central driving position, though I could be misremembering that or it could even be one of the many railway myths!

I don't think it was the central seat but more the lack of a second seat with a view out of the tiny windscreen which meant that training, route learning and various degraded methods of working requiring a second person would be very difficult.

The new 700 trains for the Thameslink apparently have a central seat with the second man seat behind and slightly to the 'non driver side'. The union have been over to Germany to see a mock up of the train and apparently are happy with the seating layout.

Many trains have a fairly central seat now though, although still slightly to the left. 321 and 365s are fairly central compared to the second mans seat.

As far as DOO trains go I suppose a good reason for the driver being on the left is that most platforms are on the left hand side and so lining up with monitors and mirrors and looking back is much easier. Obviously on new trains with built in monitors or guard worked trains this isn't such an issue.

 

[michael769]

Sitting on the offside (right in the UK) of a car helps with judging things such as distance to vehicles on the other side of the road. By being closer to the middle of the road, you get better sight lines round more curves and corners.

The main reason is that it is easier to see oncoming traffic when passing parked cars. Try getting past a bus in a left hand drive car (or a right hand drive on the continent) and you will quickly see why it matters.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't think it was the central seat but more the lack of a second seat with a view out of the tiny windscreen which meant that training, route learning and various degraded methods of working requiring a second person would be very difficult.

Didn't they originally insist on having a second man for high speed running?

 

[richw]

The main reason is that it is easier to see oncoming traffic when passing parked cars.

not just parked cars, but moving out to overtake a slow vehicle.

 

[Tomnick]

Many companies, notably the GWR, did indeed put the driver on the right in steam days. It is helpful for the fireman to be on the left, because he can then use his right hand to push the shovel into the firebox. Norton Fitzwarren wasn't directly caused by signals being on the wrong side - signals for both the fast and the slow lines were placed to the left of the slows and the driver didn't realise he was reading across one track. But there were other accidents where left vs right hand drive was contributory.

The relief line signals were indeed located on the left, but the driver (on the relief line) was instead looking at the main line signals, located to the right of the main line - so there was, as you say, a line (the down main) between the driver and the signals that he was working to, but the signals that he should have been obeying were to his left, and presumably rather less visible to him. His error only became apparent as he approached, at speed, the sand drag at the end of the down relief.

 

[jopsuk]

The main reason is that it is easier to see oncoming traffic when passing parked cars. Try getting past a bus in a left hand drive car (or a right hand drive on the continent) and you will quickly see why it matters.

Ah yes, of course. Done plenty of driving in France and Spain in british vehicles too, but not for years

As for the Victoria line, looking at the map as far as I can see most stations do indeed have the platforms on the right. The exceptions:
Great Portland Street and Kings Cross St Pancras- island platforms, but switched
Highbury & Islington southbound
Finsbury Park northbound
Seven Sisters centre platform (4)
departing platform 1 at Walthamstow Central or 2 at Brixton

Looking at pictures, Class 390 Pendolinos appear to have an almost-central driving postion with a set back second man?

 

[richw]

Ah yes, of course. Done plenty of driving in France and Spain in british vehicles too, but not for years

Whenever we have been to the continent in our car, I have always done the driving, the wife finds herself going to brake in the passenger seat though as sat as passenger in the middle of the road.

 

[bigdelboy]

I believe the class 73 can be driven from either the left or right seat, though the right controls are more limited and more suited to shunting.

See for example http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page96.htm ... about half way down the very long page.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I believe the class 73 can be driven from either the left or right seat, though the right controls are more limited and more suited to shunting.

See for example http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page96.htm ... about half way down the very long page.

33s are/were the same, which is why a couple were sent up to Aberdeen in the early days of EWS for use on local trip freights.

 

[Buttsy]

Didn't they originally insist on having a second man for high speed running?

That was also a factor in the blacking of the prototype. In fact, it wasn't until the mid-80s that it was agreed that certain trains travelling over 100mph could be single-manned, hence the 110mph services run on the WCML at that time using 87s in the main. I understand that it was still a requirement at 125mph during that period.

 

[edwin_m]

The relief line signals were indeed located on the left, but the driver (on the relief line) was instead looking at the main line signals, located to the right of the main line - so there was, as you say, a line (the down main) between the driver and the signals that he was working to, but the signals that he should have been obeying were to his left, and presumably rather less visible to him. His error only became apparent as he approached, at speed, the sand drag at the end of the down relief.

Thanks for correction - I checked the accident report after posting and I thought I'd updated my post but it doesn't seem to have gone through.

 

[jamieP]

I believe I'm correct in saying that the GWR was different (as ever) and placed the driver on the rhs. When Standard locos started arriving (lhs for the driver) this was a problem and contributed to the Norton Fitzwarren accident where a driver misread signals.

Most compaines had locos on the right hand side. The origanal A1s were R/H drive before rebuilding. Most Pre LNER locos were also R/H drive.