Driving on line of sight without route knowledge

[Horizon22]

When I was a driver at Skipton, we signed the whole stations at Leeds, Lancaster and Carlisle....including all shunts at the 'not normally used' ends of those stations. In more than twenty years of driving, I only ever had to do a 'wrong end' shunt twice at Leeds, twice at Lancaster and once at Carlisle.....in each case several years after having first signed the relevant routes. A quick glance at my route maps - which I always carried in my bag - followed by a phone conversation with the signaller, explaining the situation - and we were on our way. Signallers are always sympathetic and helpful to drivers who haven't done a move for a long time. After all, they don't want to have to deal with the consequences of a collision/derailment/ points run-through. However, in the case of a route or shunt manoeuvre that has never been taught or signed, it's a definite no-no.....you have to request the services of a qualified conductor driver or it doesn't happen.

This is indeed the general experience. Very rarely will a little shunt or a platform be outside of the wider route knowledge for that station / area even if it is an unlikely move. And even where the move has not been done in a while, signallers are more than happy to talk through the plan/move and come to a clear understanding.

 

[baz962]

I know this will be shot down, BUT, playing devil's advocate, as long as signals. speed restriction signs, etc., are obeyed, there SHOULD be no reason why any driver can't take a train (as long as it is traction they sign, of course) over any route. In other words, any UK rail route should be signalled and signed to permit safe operation by anyone qualified on the traction involved. However, I know that route knowledge is invaluable to allow slicker operation than might the case for someone new to the route. Of course, everyone is new (when solo) to a route they sign at some point...

I generally dislike comparisons with road transport, but road users do not require route training as long as they can drive (and quite a wide range of 'traction' at that) and, as long as all speed limits and road signs are obeyed, there should be no problem (and they have the additional problem of steering!). I realise of course, that there are good reasons why rail transport is vastly safer than road, including good knowledge of routes driven.

Er because it takes over a mile to stop in an inter city at 100+ miles per hour. So to not overrun a station you would have to drive at very slow speed and that's even if you know the station order. Same with speeds. By the time you see some boards , you wouldn't get the speed down in time and as for red signals. Some have very poor sighting and you would need to do around 30 mph stop before you reach it. A not inconsiderable amount of passengers would be miffed if going to say Newcastle from London with a driver pottering about.

 

[GB]

I know this will be shot down, BUT, playing devil's advocate, as long as signals. speed restriction signs, etc., are obeyed, there SHOULD be no reason why any driver can't take a train (as long as it is traction they sign, of course) over any route. In other words, any UK rail route should be signalled and signed to permit safe operation by anyone qualified on the traction involved. However, I know that route knowledge is invaluable to allow slicker operation than might the case for someone new to the route. Of course, everyone is new (when solo) to a route they sign at some point...

I generally dislike comparisons with road transport, but road users do not require route training as long as they can drive (and quite a wide range of 'traction' at that) and, as long as all speed limits and road signs are obeyed, there should be no problem (and they have the additional problem of steering!). I realise of course, that there are good reasons why rail transport is vastly safer than road, including good knowledge of routes driven.

Trains are not driven on line of sight and actions need to be taken well in advance. If your happy to have a significant increase in operational incidents such as over speeding and spads or have trains crawl about and massacre the timetable then have at it.

 

[Horizon22]

I know this will be shot down, BUT, playing devil's advocate, as long as signals. speed restriction signs, etc., are obeyed, there SHOULD be no reason why any driver can't take a train (as long as it is traction they sign, of course) over any route.

The issue might be that you don't know which signals refer to what, what is meant to be obeyed and what they might represent. Especially in a degraded situation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2024 ==

Er because it takes over a mile to stop in an inter city at 100+ miles per hour. So to not overrun a station you would have to drive at very slow speed and that's even if you know the station order. Same with speeds. By the time you see some boards , you wouldn't get the speed down in time and as for red signals. Some have very poor sighting and you would need to do around 30 mph stop before you reach it. A not inconsiderable amount of passengers would be miffed if going to say Newcastle from London with a driver pottering about.

To be fair, I think that's getting a bit detatched from the OP's question which - at least from my understanding - was to clear running lines for a very brief section and period of time to avoid even wider disruption.

 

[Dieseldriver]

I know this will be shot down, BUT, playing devil's advocate, as long as signals. speed restriction signs, etc., are obeyed, there SHOULD be no reason why any driver can't take a train (as long as it is traction they sign, of course) over any route. In other words, any UK rail route should be signalled and signed to permit safe operation by anyone qualified on the traction involved. However, I know that route knowledge is invaluable to allow slicker operation than might the case for someone new to the route. Of course, everyone is new (when solo) to a route they sign at some point...

I generally dislike comparisons with road transport, but road users do not require route training as long as they can drive (and quite a wide range of 'traction' at that) and, as long as all speed limits and road signs are obeyed, there should be no problem (and they have the additional problem of steering!). I realise of course, that there are good reasons why rail transport is vastly safer than road, including good knowledge of routes driven.

This comparison to road transport always crops up whenever Train Driver route knowledge is being discussed. Route knowledge isn’t a vaguely beneficial thing that may or may not improve safety/punctuality, it is literally an integral and necessary aspect of being a competent Train Driver. You simply cannot drive a train competently over a route you are not familiar with.

 

[Signal_Box]

Perhaps drivers should have route knowledge of all possible scenarios they may encounter on lines of route they sign. If they don't sign Platform 6, then perhaps they should sign it.
What would a briefing from a Signaller achieve? They're in a signalling centre many miles away, and possibly won't have the knowledge to pass onto a driver that the driver would require

Exactly, some drivers knowledge is scratchy enough as it is, let alone tip in a signaller who has no idea what the railway looks like at the location.

 

[ExRes]

Driver doing themselves a favour. If anyone else wonders how a train got somewhere, blind eyes are generally turned and no questions are asked.

No idea what that is supposed to mean, perhaps you could expand on how a driver is doing themselves a favour by risking losing their job

 

[Surreytraveller]

No idea what that is supposed to mean, perhaps you could expand on how a driver is doing themselves a favour by risking losing their job

It has been known to happen. Drivers mysteriously driving round bits of junctions they don't sign to get themselves out of a points failure

 

[InOban]

No-one is suggesting that anyone should drive an unsigned route at line speed. What is being put up for discussion is driving your train under tram rules, ie you can stop within the distance you can see.

 

[Geeves]

As others have said in the current year there's no 'favours' being done because as far as passenger TOCs go, if you don't sign it that's it. You would just refuse it quite rightly because it's not worth your job if something goes wrong, that's just the way it is.

In some cases it's down to the local LDC if you sign both ends, there's an understanding for example that Leeds and Manchester Victoria do the shunts at their own stations so Leeds only sign one end of the station. If the train needs to go from 3 to 6 via the west end you're going to need someone other than Leeds crew because they don't sign it.

 

[Falcon1200]

IMHO the solution to these problems is just to include them in the route knowledge training.

None of these sort of situations should occur in the first place, for my money. Learn the route and all lines associated with it in the first place.

I agree, absolutely, but me (and the TOC Control also) moaning about the problem made no difference! We always highlighted any such issue in the Control Log, and attempted to get the delays attributed to lack of route knowledge, but this would be disputed and the delays re-attributed to the root cause, ie whatever required the diversion in the first place.

 

[6Gman]

I can’t think of a scenario where a driver could be signalled into a platform they don’t sign. If it’s an option, they already sign it.

I was involved (as a passenger) in a case where a Cardiff-North Wales train was put through Platform 12 at Crewe and the driver (Cardiff?) refused the move. After some delay he was put into Platform 7 (bay) where the relieving driver then took it past Crewe South Junction and then back through the station using the Down Through next to Platform 12.

Whenever I've asked the question I've had differing answers! Some say any Driver who signs Crewe will sign all possible options; others say not. (I assume, for example, that Northern will not sign south-facing bays and East Midlands will not sign north-facing bays?)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2024 ==

Er because it takes over a mile to stop in an inter city at 100+ miles per hour. So to not overrun a station you would have to drive at very slow speed and that's even if you know the station order. Same with speeds. By the time you see some boards , you wouldn't get the speed down in time and as for red signals. Some have very poor sighting and you would need to do around 30 mph stop before you reach it. A not inconsiderable amount of passengers would be miffed if going to say Newcastle from London with a driver pottering about.

Plus you need to know the relevant local implications of route indicators, flashing signals etc.

You're on a southbound Pendolino at Crewe when the signal clears to a double yellow with a large W. What do you do next?








(Contact the signaller because taking a Pendolino to Nantwich would be unwise...)

 

[66701GBRF]

No-one is suggesting that anyone should drive an unsigned route at line speed. What is being put up for discussion is driving your train under tram rules, ie you can stop within the distance you can see.

That’s not what I got from the gist of post 30. It was suggested route knowledge makes the operation slicker rather than being a core point for safety and efficiency.

 

[craigybagel]

Whenever I've asked the question I've had differing answers! Some say any Driver who signs Crewe will sign all possible options; others say not. (I assume, for example, that Northern will not sign south-facing bays and East Midlands will not sign north-facing bays?)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2024 ==

Funnily enough, you'll find a Northern unit in a South facing bay quite often. There are drivers at Piccadilly who sign Kidsgrove - Crewe and I assume they're the ones involved in the moves - sometimes the units come in from Kidsgrove and sometimes they shunt from platform 1 via the Kidsgrove line.

That said, I would say there's no chance that EMR sign the northern end. Station shunts are extremely complicated, and in this example you can't get from Kidsgrove to a North facing bay without using a permissive signal at some point - and you really don't want to be messing around with one of them without knowing the full implications.

Plus you need to know the relevant local implications of route indicators, flashing signals etc.

You're on a southbound Pendolino at Crewe when the signal clears to a double yellow with a large W. What do you do next?

(Contact the signaller because taking a Pendolino to Nantwich would be unwise...)

To continue using your example, at the South end of Crewe you can get "P", "L", "F", "S" or "W" on main aspect signals, and all of those and also "cs", "ts", "sg", "sy" or "nk" if you're on shunt signals. Good luck working out how far you can go with all of them.....

This is why I will always maintain that short shunts around a station are a lot more complicated than driving at line speed on the mainline.

 

[Class15]

I have witnessed incidents of freights being stuck for 1 hour due to drivers not being signed for diversionary routes. Surely it would make sense?

 

[Harpers Tate]

There was an instance a while back when an Engineer's train (I think; it's not important) derailed and blocked all access to Sheffield from the Meadowhall and Woodburn directions for an extended period (i.e. more than a few hours, I think).

Specifically in reference to long-distance X-Country services via Doncaster - there is an entirely usable and practical (aside from route knowledge) route avoiding Sheffield from Rotherham (Masboro) and past Barrow Hill to Chesterfield. A large part of the southern end of this route IS routinely used when services can't exit Sheffield southwards, and instead go via Nunnery and Woodhouse. But the 6 miles or so from Masboro through Treeton to a junction near Beighton are not; only Hull Trains when diverted away from Kings Cross do so.

And so, during this disruption, XC terminated services from the North at Doncaster and restarted them elsewhere further south, with passengers having to be bussed to/from Doncaster. If there were a practice such as that suggested here, with services continuing at hugely reduced safe speed over the "alien" section, those services could have operated throughout with probably little change to the scheduled journey time and with hugely increased convenience to passengers. I don't know what they were doing with via Leeds XC services, but they, too arrive in Sheffield via Masboro so the same principle applies.

So, yes, I'd support this concept in principle. What would need to happen next is to immediately ignore the "we can't because...." opinion and instead focus on the "how can we...." question.

 

[eldomtom2]

Er because it takes over a mile to stop in an inter city at 100+ miles per hour. So to not overrun a station you would have to drive at very slow speed and that's even if you know the station order. Same with speeds. By the time you see some boards , you wouldn't get the speed down in time and as for red signals. Some have very poor sighting and you would need to do around 30 mph stop before you reach it. A not inconsiderable amount of passengers would be miffed if going to say Newcastle from London with a driver pottering about.

But this is demonstrating a fallacy that I'm seeing a lot in this thread - the idea that no more information can be provided to drivers than what is already provided.

Plus you need to know the relevant local implications of route indicators, flashing signals etc.

You're on a southbound Pendolino at Crewe when the signal clears to a double yellow with a large W. What do you do next?

This is another example - you could very well argue that the need for a large amount of route-specific knowledge to interpret route indicators etc. is a flaw of the British signalling system...

A very relevant comparison to this thread is the situation in Central Europe - in Germany if you don't have route knowledge ("Streckenkenntnis") and can't find someone who does to ride with you, you can still drive at 60mph assuming local regulations don't prohibit it...

 

[muz379]

The other thing to bear in mind if this is in response to disruption / degraded working you are also increasing signaller workload when there is probably no capacity to increase that .

The process of stopping each train to take the route they dont sign , explain the move to the driver , have the driver repeat it back , check a clear understanding has been reached , possibly set the route throughout , speak to other signallers that may be involved is going to take time for each train .

Its already bad enough having to pass just one signal at danger in busy locations with drivers that sign the route and understand what you mean when you tell them how far they are authorised to proceed , trains soon start stacking up .

Much like shunting for drivers as well , these kinds of degraded working situations involing unsignalled moves are the most dangerous for signallers making errors .

 

[304033]

So, actually... From an outsiders point of view - It's the TOC's fault because they are not allowing their drivers to have full route knowledge, eg XC and the diversion via Barrow Hill, Woodburn, Nunnery...

Sorry, but under BR this wouldnt happen.

 

[Horizon22]

So, actually... From an outsiders point of view - It's the TOC's fault because they are not allowing their drivers to have full route knowledge, eg XC and the diversion via Barrow Hill, Woodburn, Nunnery...

Sorry, but under BR this wouldnt happen.

That isn't true.

One issue with very wide route cards is of course even if you sign every diversion under the sun, eventually your competence wil lapse if you don't drive over it which for rare diversions might come relatively quickly.

Route knowledge is always being finely balanced and adjusted to try and get to a 'perfect' position across all relevant depots although that is always an elusive goal.

 

[renegademaster]

Would widespread etcs change this situation?

 

[D6130]

Sorry, but under BR this wouldnt happen.

No....a conductor driver would have been supplied - on overtime or rest day if necessary. However it would cost a lot of money to hire a conductor driver from one of the freight companies nowadays.

One issue with very wide route cards is of course even if you sign every diversion under the sun, eventually your competence wil lapse if you don't drive over it which for rare diversions might come relatively quickly.

With the exception of Saltley Seagulls of course....back in the day!

 

[Efini92]

So, actually... From an outsiders point of view - It's the TOC's fault because they are not allowing their drivers to have full route knowledge, eg XC and the diversion via Barrow Hill, Woodburn, Nunnery...

Sorry, but under BR this wouldnt happen.

It’s not about them not allowing. It’s the route refresh days they don’t want to pay for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2024 ==

Funnily enough, you'll find a Northern unit in a South facing bay quite often. There are drivers at Piccadilly who sign Kidsgrove - Crewe and I assume they're the ones involved in the moves - sometimes the units come in from Kidsgrove and sometimes they shunt from platform 1 via the Kidsgrove line.

That said, I would say there's no chance that EMR sign the northern end. Station shunts are extremely complicated, and in this example you can't get from Kidsgrove to a North facing bay without using a permissive signal at some point - and you really don't want to be messing around with one of them without knowing the full implications.

To continue using your example, at the South end of Crewe you can get "P", "L", "F", "S" or "W" on main aspect signals, and all of those and also "cs", "ts", "sg", "sy" or "nk" if you're on shunt signals. Good luck working out how far you can go with all of them.....

This is why I will always maintain that short shunts around a station are a lot more complicated than driving at line speed on the mainline.

Don’t forget you can also have signals that don’t give a route indication. Wouldn’t get very far on an electric train leaving platform 11 or 12 heading north with just main aspect.

 

[skyhigh]

The main scenario I can see a line-of-sight exemption being helpful would be if there was disruption and platforms were being blocked up and drivers didn't sign the nearest depot

Depot without knowledge sounds like a terrible idea. There are all kinds of location specific rules that could trip someone up and way more than can be briefed by a signaller over the phone.

When I was a driver at Skipton, we signed the whole stations at Leeds, Lancaster and Carlisle....including all shunts at the 'not normally used' ends of those stations.

Skipton drivers are technically not supposed to shunt at Leeds, but certainly not out the East end.

I know this will be shot down, BUT, playing devil's advocate, as long as signals. speed restriction signs, etc., are obeyed

You clearly don't have any understanding. Firstly, you suppose that all speeds are actually signed... Secondly, there are all kinds of route specific differences with signals. There are some yellows you fly past at 70mph without a care. Whereas there is another I sign that you'll be in trouble if you do more than 15 with the brake in. But none of that is signed. It is a total non-starter to suggest that a driver should be able to get in and pop off at linespeed with no route knowledge. It's a crackers idea.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2024 ==

but road users do not require route training as long as they can drive

You might as well be comparing apples with a space rocket as compare road and rail driving.

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

Secondly, there are all kinds of route specific differences with signals. There are some yellows you fly past at 70mph without a care. Whereas there is another I sign that you'll be in trouble if you do more than 15 with the brake in. But none of that is signed.

Why do those differences exist between signals of the same colour?

Surely having the same indication resulting in different outcomes increases the chances someone has an off day/gets confused and misremembers what/where that restriction is?

 

[D6130]

Skipton drivers are technically not supposed to shunt at Leeds, but certainly not out the East end.

I was talking about 15-20 years ago....when we did!

 

[Horizon22]

Why do those differences exist between signals of the same colour?

Surely having the same indication resulting in different outcomes increases the chances someone has an off day/gets confused and misremembers what/where that restriction is?

Because the line speed / distance to next signal and a whole host of other variables are different.

And yes there is a lot to remember - something people often forget about when criticising train driver salaries.

 

[66701GBRF]

Why do those differences exist between signals of the same colour?

Surely having the same indication resulting in different outcomes increases the chances someone has an off day/gets confused and misremembers what/where that restriction is?

The indication to the driver is the same where ever you are. Ie yellow means caution, expect the next signal to be at danger. How the driver responds to that indication is what is different.. depending on factors such as line speed, train weight, weather, gradient, curves, poor signal sighting etc etc.

 

[king_walnut]

I was once asked by the signaller if I could put a train into a sidings that I don't sign. He asked if I would be comfortable being conducted into it over the phone. I agreed. He told me the speed and told me when to stop. I wrote a report on it when I finished and never heard anything more.

I know sidings are pretty simple but it is something that happened.

 

[Egg Centric]

RSSB did a research project into this in 2010 and the conclusion - broadly - was that it works in other countries but wouldn't be well received by TOCs and FOCs here. If you have a Spark log in, the project number is T655.

Thank you so much. I've been educated on what "Spark" means and:

a) For anyone who didn't know like me, you can sign up with Spark here - you don't need to be part of the Railway industry - just do as I did and use a personal email address and put yourself down as a rail enthusiast
b) I've attached the relevant documents for this thread anwyay. I haven't got around to reading them yet mind!