Drivers rostering.

[philthetube]

Looking at the way the Avanti cancellation thread has drifted recently, I wondered if there was room for improvement in the way duties are allocated and if these things actually happen. I was a tube driver and so know how it worked there.

Virtually all underground depots have a "Mafia" this was actually one driver who would take the duties from and driver who opted in an the re-allocate them according to requests. There was no compulsion to join, it was possible to follow the rota and arrange any swaps you needed for yourself. It was accepted that due to the balance of work available allocations could not be perfect for everyone all the time. Specific requests were accommodated where possible.

Some drivers always wanted to work specific times, others specific rest days etc, strangely at me depot more wanted lates than earlies.

Does this happen on the big railway?


Also are there any links which are time specific, as long as they are balanced and leave the usual rota for people wanting to keep present conditions I cannot see why there would be an issue.

you may need a week tucked in the middle of it to allow for route retention.

 

[43066]

Looking at the way the Avanti cancellation thread has drifted recently, I wondered if there was room for improvement in the way duties are allocated and if these things actually happen. I was a tube driver and so know how it worked there.

Virtually all underground depots have a "Mafia" this was actually one driver who would take the duties from and driver who opted in an the re-allocate them according to requests. There was no compulsion to join, it was possible to follow the rota and arrange any swaps you needed for yourself. It was accepted that due to the balance of work available allocations could not be perfect for everyone all the time. Specific requests were accommodated where possible.

Some drivers always wanted to work specific times, others specific rest days etc, strangely at me depot more wanted lates than earlies.

Does this happen on the big railway?


Also are there any links which are time specific, as long as they are balanced and leave the usual rota for people wanting to keep present conditions I cannot see why there would be an issue.

you may need a week tucked in the middle of it to allow for route retention.

No “Mafia” on the big railway. People are essentially left to make their own arrangements which you then ring through to resources for approval. It’s fairly easy to arrange over WhatsApp etc.

Also are there any links which are time specific, as long as they are balanced and leave the usual rota for people wanting to keep present conditions I cannot see why there would be an issue.

We have a Sundays outside link for drivers. All new joiners have Sundays inside so it’s gradually dwindling with retirements.

 

[choochoochoo]

Although it'll never happen, I'd love to see airline style rostering in the railways.

Imagine if you could bid for specific diagrams on your rostered duty days and the most senior driver that put in a bid for that turn gets it.

 

[66701GBRF]

Although it'll never happen, I'd love to see airline style rostering in the railways.

Imagine if you could bid for specific diagrams on your rostered duty days and the most senior driver that put in a bid for that turn gets it.

Sounds like a crappy system for everyone else. Other than perhaps which link you are in, seniority should have no relevance to rostering.

 

[43066]

Sounds like a crappy system for everyone else. Other than perhaps which link you are in, seniority should have no relevance to rostering.

Agreed. Personally I’d be in favour of moving towards single links where everyone shares the work equally. That also ensures the maximum possible number of people to potentially arrange swaps with!

 

[Efini92]

Agreed. Personally I’d be in favour of moving towards single links where everyone shares the work equally. That also ensures the maximum possible number of people to potentially arrange swaps with!

Depends on the size of the depot and how much work there is. Would be hard to have one big link if some routes only had a few instances.

Does this happen on the big railway?


Also are there any links which are time specific, as long as they are balanced and leave the usual rota for people wanting to keep present conditions I cannot see why there would be an issue.

It depends on the depot. Some top links have later start time/earlier finish times. Some are more express work orientated.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Agreed. Personally I’d be in favour of moving towards single links where everyone shares the work equally. That also ensures the maximum possible number of people to potentially arrange swaps with!

In terms of the equality principle I totally agree. But sometimes pragmatism will inevitably cut across it. For example consider a large depot like Northern at Leeds and how you ensure route retention of Knottingley-Goole. Divided links are sometimes a necessary evil.

 

[43066]

It depends on the depot. Some top links have later start time/earlier finish times. Some are more express work orientated.

In terms of the equality principle I totally agree. But sometimes pragmatism will inevitably cut across it. For example consider a large depot like Northern at Leeds and how you ensure route retention of Knottingley-Goole. Divided links are sometimes a necessary evil.

Do agree with you both, it depends on location/route card as to whether it’s doable. We have a relatively straightforward route that enables essentially a single link. We all do the same work, just that some have Sundays outside. Clearly that wouldn’t be possible everywhere.

 

[Surreytraveller]

No “Mafia” on the big railway. People are essentially left to make their own arrangements which you then ring through to resources for approval. It’s fairly easy to arrange over WhatsApp etc.



We have a Sundays outside link for drivers. All new joiners have Sundays inside so it’s gradually dwindling with retirements.

Depends where you work. We have Mafias. Much mire efficient than roster clerks as well, who haven't got a clue

 

[Sleepy]

Roster clerks can make or break a depot. A good one can remember who signs additional routes above a links core work and use it and knowledge of crew members flexibility for roster moves to enable granting more leave requests etc. A mediocre / poor one can cheese off a lot of people very quickly & lose goodwill resulting in downward spiral of more uncovered turns and more work for Train Crew Supervisors to try and cover at short notice to avoid cancellations.

 

[baz962]

Looking at the way the Avanti cancellation thread has drifted recently, I wondered if there was room for improvement in the way duties are allocated and if these things actually happen. I was a tube driver and so know how it worked there.

Virtually all underground depots have a "Mafia" this was actually one driver who would take the duties from and driver who opted in an the re-allocate them according to requests. There was no compulsion to join, it was possible to follow the rota and arrange any swaps you needed for yourself. It was accepted that due to the balance of work available allocations could not be perfect for everyone all the time. Specific requests were accommodated where possible.

Some drivers always wanted to work specific times, others specific rest days etc, strangely at me depot more wanted lates than earlies.

Does this happen on the big railway?


Also are there any links which are time specific, as long as they are balanced and leave the usual rota for people wanting to keep present conditions I cannot see why there would be an issue.

you may need a week tucked in the middle of it to allow for route retention.

At my old toc we had at least ten links.
One was am and one pm plus a night only and a non Sunday. Plus a few more.

 

[philthetube]

It strikes me as sense, with a view to keeping staff happy, to have AM PM and middle links, using maybe half of the total depot duties, with the other half of duties on a conventional rota,

allocation to these links based on seniority, new starters going on what is available.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

No “Mafia” on the big railway. People are essentially left to make their own arrangements which you then ring through to resources for approval. It’s fairly easy to arrange over WhatsApp etc.



We have a Sundays outside link for drivers. All new joiners have Sundays inside so it’s gradually dwindling with retirements.

What does outside and inside mean here please?

 

[30907]

What does outside and inside mean here please?

in relation to the working week.

 

[baz962]

What does outside and inside mean here please?

Inside means Sunday is a normal working day in the rota. Outside means that Sunday isn't part of the rota.

 

[dk1]

Depends on the size of the depot and how much work there is. Would be hard to have one big link if some routes only had a few instances.


It depends on the depot. Some top links have later start time/earlier finish times. Some are more express work orientated.

Exactly that. I'm in the top link which has the shifts you say along with the massive bonus of NO nights whatsoever. Got to have something to strive through the links for now there are no insensitives like mileage or enhanced shift allowance.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Exactly that. I'm in the top link which has the shifts you say along with the massive bonus of NO nights whatsoever. Got to have something to strive through the links for now there are no insensitives like mileage or enhanced shift allowance.

I always think its easier to do a night shift than start or finish at silly o'clock

 

[dk1]

I always think its easier to do a night shift than start or finish at silly o'clock

Which explains perfectly how different we all are on what shifts we prefer to work.

 

[Andrew1395]

I have not been around train crew rostering since privatisation, but then seniority was reflected in the links. Basically the more senior links had the best work, and that included earning potential (Mileage).

 

[dk1]

I have no been around train crew rostering since privatisation, but then seniority was reflected in the links. Basically the more senior links had the best work, and that included earning potential (Mileage).

Nothing has changed with privatisation mate really.

 

[LowLevel]

Nothing has changed with privatisation mate really.

Depends if you link by seniority or do parallel links.

Our drivers links are so called parallel ones where there is no difference in seniority between them. You pick the link you fancy subject to there being a vacancy.

In theory the guards links at my depot are done by seniority but in practice the work is little different these days. 3 links and it generally takes over 10 years to get into link 1.

 

[dk1]

Depends if you link by seniority or do parallel links.

Our drivers links are so called parallel ones where there is no difference in seniority between them. You pick the link you fancy subject to there being a vacancy.

In theory the guards links at my depot are done by seniority but in practice the work is little different these days. 3 links and it generally takes over 10 years to get into link 1.

Guards at my depot can choose Intercity or local links. Drivers must follow seniority & move up the links accordingly.

 

[Route115?]

North American railroads and transit systems often use seniority - the Toronto Transit Commision & New York Subway certainly do. Its suits long timers who often run the unions. Pay scales are often incremental which means that you get paid more for doing less work (the easier turns). Hardly fair. Of course you could argue that the old link system (still used in some places) was essentially seniority driven (and in the days of mileage payments long timers got paid more). Also promotion from cleaner to fireman to driver was by seniority - but I'm showing my age!

Airlines tend to use seniority. Interestingly I believe Virgin Atlantic put staff into three groups and rotated them so that different staff got their pick of rosters each month but that was a one off. Low cost opeartors such as easyJet & Ryanair are different with typically five on / five off rosters.

This is different to a preference system (which is what has been mentioned in previous posts). Airlines would probably use a computer system. The railways would probably use the rostering clerk or 'Mr Mafia' which may well be more effective. At my TOC the drivers representative did the rostering (the diagramming was done by the TOC). It worked well & the traincrew manager seemed to prefer it that way.

 

[Gloster]

I am trying to remember back to when I was involved in guards’ rostering at one of the London depots in the mid-1980s. There were six mainline links, with 1 being the most senior. 3 and 4 were the best paying, but they had many late night and early starts: I think that for a couple of months in winter 4 didn’t have any starts in daylight. 5 and 6 didn’t have so many unsociable hours, but they only had a few mileage turns. 1 and 2 got a fair few mileage turns, but I don’t think they signed on before 06.00 or off after 24.00. Of course, spare turns could throw people about a bit.