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Drivers keeping hands on the controls

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Amos390

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One thing that I notice a lot when I go around the stations is the amount of drivers that when leaving stations or coasting along a line will take their hands off the controls entirely, often crossing their arms or retrieving something from their bag (usually a drink or small snack), and especially when leaving stations will often be stood up leaning out the window with a foot remaining on the DSD pedal in case it starts beeping.

How is this actually viewed upon by the operating companies, because it often seems like they’re leaving the train with no driver and will definitely significantly reduce the fraction time of the driver.
 
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Zontar

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One thing that I notice a lot when I go around the stations is the amount of drivers that when leaving stations or coasting along a line will take their hands off the controls entirely, often crossing their arms or retrieving something from their bag (usually a drink or small snack), and especially when leaving stations will often be stood up leaning out the window with a foot remaining on the DSD pedal in case it starts beeping.

How is this actually viewed upon by the operating companies, because it often seems like they’re leaving the train with no driver and will definitely significantly reduce the fraction time of the driver.
Do you always drive your car with your hands " ten to two"?
 

Unobrow

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One thing that I notice a lot when I go around the stations is the amount of drivers that when leaving stations or coasting along a line will take their hands off the controls entirely, often crossing their arms or retrieving something from their bag (usually a drink or small snack), and especially when leaving stations will often be stood up leaning out the window with a foot remaining on the DSD pedal in case it starts beeping.

How is this actually viewed upon by the operating companies, because it often seems like they’re leaving the train with no driver and will definitely significantly reduce the fraction time of the driver.
How are they leaving the train with “no driver”?

Leaning out of the window is standard practice for passenger and freight drivers, checking their train. You have to leave your foot on the pedal, or it will respond by beeping and counting down to a full brake application.
 

Amos390

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How are they leaving the train with “no driver”?

Leaning out of the window is standard practice for passenger and freight drivers, checking their train.
There isn’t anyone at the controls in case something were to go wrong in the station, usually doesn’t the guard look out the rear window for that purpose?
 

skyhigh

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because it often seems like they’re leaving the train with no driver
This is total nonsense.

Taking hands off the controls is the same as having no driver on the train??

especially when leaving stations will often be stood up leaning out the window with a foot remaining on the DSD pedal in case it starts beeping.
If I'm on green aspects, can see the line ahead is clear and also comfortably reach the cab window I will always look back when possible to make sure the platform is clear. You might be able to see something the guard can't from where they're dispatching. There is nothing wrong with it.

And you don't leave your foot on the DSD "in case it starts beeping". The brakes will apply if you take your foot off.

There isn’t anyone at the controls in case something were to go wrong
How long do you think it would take a driver to apply the brake if required, from an "arms crossed position"?

It's completely different to having nobody at the controls, stop being silly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

usually doesn’t the guard look out the rear window for that purpose?
Random example - 158s have smallish door windows. The guard could be anywhere along the length of the train. Their view is fairly restricted. You get a much better view from the cab. If you know the line is clear and there's no signals to worry about, how is it more dangerous to look back than sit with your hands fixed to the controls?
 

Unobrow

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There isn’t anyone at the controls in case something were to go wrong in the station, usually doesn’t the guard look out the rear window for that purpose?
When I lean out of the window, I’m still sat in the seat and therefore at the controls. I’ll admit I’m not as familiar with more modern passenger stock to know if there’s an opening window adjacent to the drivers seat, but even the class 90’s had provision for that exact reason. Do guards on today’s stock have access to a brake valve anymore from their window position?
 

Amos390

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This is total nonsense.

Taking hands off the controls is the same as having no driver on the train??


If I'm on green aspects, can see the line ahead is clear and also comfortably reach the cab window I will always look back when possible to make sure the platform is clear. You might be able to see something the guard can't from where they're dispatching. There is nothing wrong with it.

And you don't leave your foot on the DSD "in case it starts beeping". The brakes will apply if you take your foot off.


How long do you think it would take a driver to apply the brake if required, from an "arms crossed position"?

It's completely different to having nobody at the controls, stop being silly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Random example - 158s have smallish door windows. The guard could be anywhere along the length of the train. Their view is fairly restricted. You get a much better view from the cab. If you know the line is clear and there's no signals to worry about, how is it more dangerous to look back than sit with your hands fixed to the controls?
ah ok, I suppose, thanks for the answers, simply one of those questions that just came up and I couldn’t really find any answer to.
 

norbitonflyer

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It's not like a road vehicle where you should always have one hand on the steering wheel. The driver does not steer the train.

And even in a car there are moments when you need to look over your shoulder rather than straight ahead
 

greatkingrat

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I guess it varies by TOC, but I'm pretty sure if a manager saw me departing a station with my head stuck out the window, they wouldn't be very happy!
 

Sheridan

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I guess it varies by TOC, but I'm pretty sure if a manager saw me departing a station with my head stuck out the window, they wouldn't be very happy!

Isn’t there a rule book requirement (with the important caveat ‘where possible’) for a driver to look back along their train periodically? Of course on a lot of newer passenger units this isn’t possible and it’s probably most important for freight or loco-hauled passenger drivers.

(I think some freight locos have a ‘DSD holdover’ button near the window to facilitate a driver actually getting out of the seat and taking their foot off the pedal to have a proper look back.)
 

bahnause

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Many German trains even have a Seitenfahrschalter (side control) on the side opposite the driver’s desk. This allows the driver to operate the train from the wrong side – for shunting or to observe the platform as the train departs – and then hand control over to the main desk. The only time I used it on the ICE 1, I came to a sudden stop after 50 metres. Apparently, the handover isn’t quite as straightforward as it seems if you’re not used to it...
 

Unobrow

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I guess it varies by TOC, but I'm pretty sure if a manager saw me departing a station with my head stuck out the window, they wouldn't be very happy!
They don’t want you checking your train? I’m very surprised at that. Not your problem though if that’s the way they want it.
 

martin2345uk

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We have long periods of being able to use cruise control not needing to touch any controls at all apart from the DSD so I'm not just gonna sit with my arms outstretched one on the brake one on the power, as soon as anything happens obviously it changes.
 

Geeves

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I guess it varies by TOC, but I'm pretty sure if a manager saw me departing a station with my head stuck out the window, they wouldn't be very happy!

I know at my TOC if you're able to look back then you're advised to do so for multiple reasons, check the PTI is clear, check your train is complete and moving after coupling, check your guard is on board at an RA station. During despatch I'm always glad to see it incase I suddenly need to signal to stop the train. The guard cannot always see from his position.

I don't see why that would ever be seen as bad thing?
 

driver9000

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We're not getting up and going to the buffet car or trolley, we're still sitting there within inches of the controls so reaction times aren't increased. The train hasn't been "left without a Driver" simply because they aren't holding on to the controls and looking out along the train where it's possible to do so is a rule book requirement. For example I can't physically look out along the train as I drive sitting in the centre of cab but I do have bodyside cameras which can be used departing a station instead of poking your head out the window.
 

Sorcerer

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I think the fact thousands of trains run every day without incident while this happens tells you all that needs to be known really.
 

Trackman

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We have long periods of being able to use cruise control not needing to touch any controls at all apart from the DSD so I'm not just gonna sit with my arms outstretched one on the brake one on the power, as soon as anything happens obviously it changes.
Indeed.
Also having your hands hovering or holding controls can cause knee-jerk reactions when something happens when you need a hand for something else.
 

King Lazy

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An old instructor I knew liked his trainees to get to the point where they could operate the controls with one hand.

This was on units with a seperate throttle and brake handle.

The idea being that unlike a car where you have to constantly make adjustments, mainly with the steering wheel, with a train you don’t. But you do need to make sure you don’t “get behind” events.

If you let go of the wheel a car will drift off the road quite quickly, even on a straight road.

On a train you are controlling a vehicle that doesn’t react quickly to things such as the need to slow down or accelerate. So micro-management of the controls every few seconds is not required. Adjusting the throttle for example will take some time to be noticed.

However, If you get a little behind things on a train you can rapidly run out of time/space to correct. For example, if approaching a station and you answer a call for aid but miss your braking point. There will quickly come a point where even an emergency application won’t get you stopped by the platform. Or failing to notice your speed is too high late on the approach in slippy weather could result in the same.

Approaching a speed restriction. If you brake too late you could overspeed or trip a TPWS grid. So an early intervention is needed. And this is where excellent route knowledge is required

So the skill in driving a train isn’t constant control of every tiny aspect. But using your knowledge and pre-empting events, setting things up beforehand, then monitoring what is happening and whether the parameters (speed, rate of retardation etc) are pointing towards the desired outcome or whether adjustment is required. Again, these adjustments have to be pre-empted and made early enough to work.

In this way it can be compared to piloting an aircraft. I know such comparisons often bring out impassioned arguments about whether drivers and pilots can be compared. That is not my point.

What I am saying is that on an aircraft the pilots are constantly preparing for the next thing. Pre-storing the next radio channel for example. In times of high workload such as landing their job is to stabilise the aircraft at a suitable speed, in the correct configuration. They need the approach lined up, glide angle correct, flaps set, gear down, thrust set etc well before the aircraft touches the runway. They do checklists early to ensure nothing gets missed.

Seeing a pilot complete all this in a flurry of activity a few seconds before touchdown would NOT be impressive.
Instead a professional would calmly set everything up in good time and then adjust as needed.

Train drivers must do similar.

So approaching a certain station I might shut off early knowing the uphill gradient will dissipate my momentum (thus making a slide less likely when the brake is applied than going straight from power to brake). It will also prevent me powering through a neutral section just as I need my hand to cancel an AWS magnet.

I will then apply the brake to a known quantity in a certain vicinity based on the weather, railhead and exact speed I’m doing at that time. I will then leave it until I reach a speed on approach I am happy with and adjust accordingly.

By doing so I have spare mental capacity and a spare hand for additional things that occur like a call for aid sounding, cancelling a temporary AWS magnet or even sighting track workers and having to sound the horn.

I could do everything much later and with a flurry of activity but then something like reaching for the horn could cause me to keep power on slightly later, perhaps inducing a slide when I find my approach speed too high and brake without dissipating momentum first. Or I could miss an AWS magnet, or even miss my braking point.

Essentially driving a train is about planning ahead and getting things sorted before you reduce your margins for error too far.

That is why the old instructor liked his trainees to be capable of working the train one handed. It forced them to prioritise their decisions and approach everything methodically and early.

While it may not look to a layman that a driver is in control of a train it is not necessary to constantly have hands on the controls if you are correctly monitoring the parameters of your train and all is well.

In fact, I would suggest that the drivers that appear to be doing the least are more likely in more control of their train than those making constant adjustments.

This is backed up by managers not liking to see things in downloads such as a large number of repeated applications/releases of the brake. In older days this could result in a loss of air but it is still frowned upon. A good driver will set the brake and leave it making minor adjustments as needed.

I often think of stopping at a station as being like playing a hole at golf. I have my ‘drive’ (a long brake application made early to get speed well down). Then I release the brake and play my approach shot getting the speed down to what I want in the platform. Finally a few ‘putts’ to stop exactly.

Sorry for the long post but I hope this gives a bit more insight for any interested non-drivers.
 
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