Drivers Ipads

[43066]

Staff morale has little or nothing to do with unprofessional and foolish errands on trying to get extra pay for things that have no material impact on the Job Evaluation Score.


Oddly enough in the NHS and in private industry moving to things like electronic records and electronic reference books is acknowledged as a good thing, becasue you are simply carrying around one tablet / phone rather than a bag full reference texts and having to worry about have you got enough patientsreport forms, is your CPG up-to-date ... the charging thing is a bit of a red herring especially if the workplace has facilities to keep these devices charged
The NHS staff Morale issue is to do with real impact on Job evaluation scores , where , in Nursing in particular, the JE scheme is ignored by management when grading new roles ( other roles havign won the battle with the move to Band 6 on completion of New Qualified period )

As a train driver I don’t have a “job evaluation score”. I also don’t work for the NHS, so I fail to see the relevance! On the other hand I hope for (and will probably get) a payment of some sort for learning a new fleet of trains next year. Nobody has said technology is regarded as a bad thing on the railway - and indeed it has a long history of being adopted - however it is negotiable, in accordance with longstanding industry practice. That is neither unprofessional nor foolish.

It’s interesting how people always want to punch down and seem to begrudge railway staff getting anything better than the worst aspects of other industries’ Ts and Cs.

 

[Lurcheroo]

It’s interesting how people always want to punch down and seem to begrudge railway staff getting anything better than the worst aspects of other industries’ Ts and Cs.

I DO see how people can feel that it’s not right. If they wish not to negotiate for better pay and conditions then that’s up to them.
I personally go to work for me and my family, to feed and to clothe my kids and if the company is willing to pay me a little bit extra to use a tablet then I’m all in.

If a self employed person makes a similar change then they get the whole benefit. If I’m going to provide me value to a company then for me to get a cut of it seems fair.
I win and the Company wins. If they didn’t give me anything, the price of tickets isn’t going to come down

It does also seem odd (regardless of the route causes) to compare it to an industry that people want to leave in droves, and then say “well we do it this way”. Well maybe look at the industry where people commit to working for life and take a leaf from their book, even if it’s only 1 or 2 positives, it’s better.

 

[Tomnick]

It's completely unreasonable. The employee is there to deliver the company's business requirements. They are not entitled to - nor should they get - a share on any savings the company may make as a result of its investment in new technology. I'm afraid this is just the sort of "Spanish practice" that the railway has that needs removing - I've never known it occur in any other industry that I have been involved in, despite the continuous march of technology.

I'd be more sympathetic to that viewpoint if we'd not spent the last two years continually being told that we can't have a pay rise despite rampant inflation, whilst our employers (yes, I concede that they've not really had any say in this matter) continue to make healthy profits.

 

[InOban]

'Because it’s longstanding industry practice. Either a one off payment or linked to to pay negotiations'

That's what destroyed so much of our traditional manufacturing industry. See British Leyland and shipbuilding.

 

[En]

<snip>

It’s interesting how people always want to punch down and seem to begrudge railway staff getting anything better than the worst aspects of other industries’ Ts and Cs.

no one is "punching down" at rail staff , it's the rail staff punching down and attempting to justify Spanish practices ...

the fact you seem to be incapable of understanding that the vast majority of jobs do have some for m of Job evaluation process for setting the basic wage / banding / wage range seems to have escaped you


== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Aug 2024 ==

'Because it’s longstanding industry practice. Either a one off payment or linked to to pay negotiations'

That's what destroyed so much of our traditional manufacturing industry. See British Leyland and shipbuilding.

Exactly

 

[newtownmgr]

I think they got a "technology payment" to take them on, but there was no agreement as to what would actually go on them. WMT Drivers don't have company phones now either, they used to have them.

Now the company is talking about replacing the old tablets because they are obsolete.

WMT drivers have never had company phones. Conductors get phones instead of tablets but they are as bad apparently

 

[dk1]

'Because it’s longstanding industry practice. Either a one off payment or linked to to pay negotiations'

That's what destroyed so much of our traditional manufacturing industry. See British Leyland and shipbuilding.

I’m surprised you’ve not mentioned the miners

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

'Because it’s longstanding industry practice. Either a one off payment or linked to to pay negotiations'

In other words, we do it this way because we’ve always done it this way…

This boils down to “I don’t get it, so why should anybody else”.

Let’s look at it a different way. Imagine people aren’t annoyed by technology payments being given, but curious about how they’re justified to see if it’s something they could use in their own case…

(I work in cybersecurity, we very definitely don’t get payments for new technology, I’d be laughed out of the office for suggesting it, although they do throw some nice tech at us to play with occasionally)

 

[dk1]

(I work in cybersecurity, we very definitely don’t get payments for new technology, I’d be laughed out of the office for suggesting it, although they do throw some nice tech at us to play with occasionally)

(I’m a train driver and I do. Two very different careers, two very different working agreements)

 

[NSEWonderer]

In other words, we do it this way because we’ve always done it this way…



Let’s look at it a different way. Imagine people aren’t annoyed by technology payments being given, but curious about how they’re justified to see if it’s something they could use in their own case…

(I work in cybersecurity, we very definitely don’t get payments for new technology, I’d be laughed out of the office for suggesting it, although they do throw some nice tech at us to play with occasionally)

Considering such devices are integral to a cybersecurity role, I'd have thought that it would indeed make sense that you'd be expected to keep upto date with new technology(without additinal payment) as they'd bring new threats that you'd need to deal with aswell as newer solutions.

 

[m0ffy]

I am genuinely baffled by claims of ‘learning new technology’. You’re not being asked to learn meaningfully new skills - it’s a piece of consumer hardware running some straightforward apps.

 

[156444]

Considering such devices are integral to a cybersecurity role, I'd have thought that it would indeed make sense that you'd be expected to keep upto date with new technology(without additinal payment) as they'd bring new threats that you'd need to deal with aswell as newer solutions.

By the same rationale, it seems it would be expected that train drivers keep up with new technology (learning to drive new trains introduced by their company) without additional payment. However, a poster upthread stated that they would expect a payment for learning to drive a new type of train.

Having seen this type of discussion several times now on the Forum, I'm not sure there is a compelling argument in favour of such arrangements that could be transferred to other sectors. It seems to me that it's more that, because the railway is probably the industry sector with the strongest unions in this country, railway staff have some benefits which aren't available in other industry sectors. I can understand why railway staff would want to keep those benefits, and why non-railway staff would find them peculiar.

 

[dk1]

I am genuinely baffled by claims of ‘learning new technology’. You’re not being asked to learn meaningfully new skills - it’s a piece of consumer hardware running some straightforward apps.

It’s more to do with a change in working practices and something that is over and above what’s listed in a job description. Management will have to negotiate with unions for any change in this and a one off payment to accept it will in most cases do the trick. If this wasn’t the case where would it end and what else could be imposed on the staff member?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

Unions exist to protect their membership.

 

[Dai Corner]

Do railway staff have to leave their company-supplied devices at the depot when they book off or can they take them home and use them for whatever they wish? Is use during breaks strictly limited to operational need or can they check their personal email, play games etc?

If not, I'd suggest that the staff have gained a benefit and find it difficult to justify paying them extra as well.

 

[chuff chuff]

Do railway staff have to leave their company-supplied devices at the depot when they book off or can they take them home and use them for whatever they wish? Is use during breaks strictly limited to operational need or can they check their personal email, play games etc?

If not, I'd suggest that the staff have gained a benefit and find it difficult to justify paying them extra as well.

Or perhaps the payment could have been higher without this 'benefit '.

 

[m0ffy]

It’s more to do with a change in working practices and something that is over and above what’s listed in a job description. Management will have to negotiate with unions for any change in this and a one off payment to accept it will in most cases do the trick. If this wasn’t the case where would it end and what else could be imposed on the staff member?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

Unions exist to protect their membership.

I also work in a heavily unionised industry, and the idea of receiving a payment to get instructions and updates electronically rather than on paper is utterly laughable. You have to realise this is 2024, not 1974, and it is entirely reasonable to expect staff to use commonly available technology.
When electricity networks issued iPads to field staff, it wasn’t even remotely contentious, and we are unionised at the same rate as the railways.

 

[Lurcheroo]

By the same rationale, it seems it would be expected that train drivers keep up with new technology (learning to drive new trains introduced by their company) without additional payment. However, a poster upthread stated that they would expect a payment for learning to drive a new type of train.

I must have missed that one!

As far as I know we’ve not had any payments to learn how to drive new trains at my TOC and in the last 5 years, they’ve had hell of a lot of new ones. 197’s, 230’s, 67+MK4 DVT, 231’s, 756’s, 398’s and for a very short period 796’s.

It seems to me that it's more that, because the railway is probably the industry sector with the strongest unions in this country, railway staff have some benefits which aren't available in other industry sectors. I can understand why railway staff would want to keep those benefits, and why non-railway staff would find them peculiar.

I think that’s a pretty fair assessment and Adding to what DK1 says, a union isn’t an outside company coming in, it’s colleagues all coming together in a ‘unified’ manor to stand up for themselves. If the vast majority of colleagues said “we’d rather use pen and paper thanks” then why should they be forced to change?

I think something key to this that the tablet is replacing vital documents that you need to do your job, but having things like phones and tablets on in the cab is strictly prohibited and being caught doing so could see the end of your railway career. So arrangements have to be made and fully laid out for what is permitted and how doing so is permitted. This then gets bundled in with what is in reality small payment, which ultimately is just a sweetener because it’s more hassle than it’s sounds being given a tablet (at least in my experience and what I have seen it has been).

 

[Highview]

Additional duties deserve additional pay, but if they are simply replacing existing duties I don't see the argument - assuming training time is paid for. Maybe pay should be reduced if ever a duty is dropped from a job description....

 

[Lurcheroo]

I also work in a heavily unionised industry, and the idea of receiving a payment to get instructions and updates electronically rather than on paper is utterly laughable. You have to realise this is 2024, not 1974, and it is entirely reasonable to expect staff to use commonly available technology.
When electricity networks issued iPads to field staff, it wasn’t even remotely contentious, and we are unionised at the same rate as the railways.

Yes but you can’t lose your job for using an electronic device whilst doing your job, we can.

We also have quite an old work force (I’m 25 so perfectly fine with using a tablet), but I know instructors who have given that up because it went from being paper reports to computer written reports. The older generation don’t adjust to technology so well as they never had it growing up (I know as my Nan phones me almost weekly about her phone or laptop haha!)

Besides you have may well have benefits that have been negotiated that we don’t have.

 

[dk1]

I also work in a heavily unionised industry, and the idea of receiving a payment to get instructions and updates electronically rather than on paper is utterly laughable. You have to realise this is 2024, not 1974, and it is entirely reasonable to expect staff to use commonly available technology.
When electricity networks issued iPads to field staff, it wasn’t even remotely contentious, and we are unionised at the same rate as the railways.

But accepting a tablet was nothing to do with my job.

 

[Dai Corner]

It's interesting to note that how different industries have reacted.

Around ten years ago I worked as the IT Manager in a school.These are highly unionised too.It was decided that all teachers and teaching assistants should have an iPad and pay, IIRC, £50 towards it. Amongst other things, they were to be used to take the register and record things like misbehaviour or exemplary behaviour. The only grumbles were from Admin staff who, being sat of a PC all day, were not offered the opportunity to pay the fifty quid and receive an iPad.

 

[m0ffy]

Yes but you can’t lose your job for using an electronic device whilst doing your job, we can.

We also have quite an old work force (I’m 25 so perfectly fine with using a tablet), but I know instructors who have given that up because it went from being paper reports to computer written reports. The older generation don’t adjust to technology so well as they never had it growing up (I know as my Nan phones me almost weekly about her phone or laptop haha!)

Besides you have may well have benefits that have been negotiated that we don’t have.

I’m not entirely sure what point you’re making here - the workforce is older so they shouldn’t be expected to learn how to use a decades old piece of tech? Or that your employer has rules that conflict with their expectations? I don’t really buy either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

But accepting a tablet was nothing to do with my job.

Then you may find driving a train won’t be, either.

 

[dk1]

We also have quite an old work force (I’m 25 so perfectly fine with using a tablet), but I know instructors who have given that up because it went from being paper reports to computer written reports. The older generation don’t adjust to technology so well as they never had it growing up (I know as my Nan phones me almost weekly about her phone or laptop haha!)

Many of our older workers are as equally tech savvy as the younger generation and positively accept it. Others however are far more disinterested as in all things in life.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

Then you may find driving a train won’t be, either.

That’s a generation or more away and is certainly something I will never have to concern myself with

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes but you can’t lose your job for using an electronic device whilst doing your job, we can.

We also have quite an old work force (I’m 25 so perfectly fine with using a tablet), but I know instructors who have given that up because it went from being paper reports to computer written reports. The older generation don’t adjust to technology so well as they never had it growing up (I know as my Nan phones me almost weekly about her phone or laptop haha!)

Besides you have may well have benefits that have been negotiated that we don’t have.

How did they manage going from moving arms and lights on posts to movement authorities on a screen in the cab? Did they get a pay rise for that? How about driving 21st century tri-mode trains instead of 1980s DMUs?

 

[dk1]

How did they manage going from moving arms and lights on posts to movement authorities on a screen in the cab? Did they get a pay rise for that? How about driving 21st century tri-mode trains instead of 1980s DMUs?

We have totally transitioned in my neck of the woods with a brand new all singing all dancing fleet of high tech trains. That’s just part of our job and with all the complex training involved and help given is accepted without question.

 

[Dai Corner]

We have totally transitioned in my neck of the woods with a brand new all singing all dancing fleet of high tech trains. That’s just part of our job and with all the complex training involved and help given is accepted without question.

Did you get a payment for driving the new trains? Isn't reading the various notices also just a part of the job? Did you get training and help with doing so on tablets instead of paper?

 

[dk1]

Did you get a payment for driving the new trains? Isn't reading the various notices also just a part of the job? Did you get training and help with doing so on tablets instead of paper?

No of course we didn’t get paid for driving the new trains and yes of course we got full training and assistance in using the new tablets once they’d been accepted. How else would we know how to access and use them for the information and signing off of publications/notices required?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

We are given full training on everything on the railway and always have been.

 

[Dai Corner]

No of course we didn’t get paid for driving the new trains and yes of course we got full training and assistance in using the new tablets once they’d been accepted. How else would we know how to access and use them for the information and signing off of publications/notices required?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

We are given full training on everything on the railway and always have been.

Do you see why people are surprised to learn that you were paid to use the new tablets now?

 

[Lurcheroo]

I’m not entirely sure what point you’re making here - the workforce is older so they shouldn’t be expected to learn how to use a decades old piece of tech? Or that your employer has rules that conflict with their expectations? I don’t really buy either.

My point is, that not everyone finds it easy to use so it’s not making the job easier and more simple for everyone.

Many of our older workers are as equally tech savvy as the younger generation and positively accept it. Others however are far more disinterested as in all things in life.

No of course, there are plenty who find it no problem but also plenty who don’t really like it, find it awkward and would rather have a book than try to read it off a tablet, just an observation at my fairly small depot of about 50 drivers.

How did they manage going from moving arms and lights on posts to movement authorities on a screen in the cab? Did they get a pay rise for that? How about driving 21st century tri-mode trains instead of 1980s DMUs?

Nit sure if you know I work on the Cambrian which was the ERTMS test bed or it’s coincidence, but there are some who retired as they didn’t want to deal with it, there are some who moved depots to avoid it, there are some who accepted it with open arms, and there are some who still don’t like the system today.

We still drives 1980’s DMU’s and there are many who are really not pleased by the prospect of 197’s next year. I personally very much look forward to them.
I don’t work down where the new tri-modes are so don’t know how they’ve been received.
I can tell you that I’ve certainly seem many issues that have been caused by older drivers not quite understanding the technology in the new trains though.
As one example, Having to get fitters called over because there’s an issue just to find they have ‘coupling mode’ selected on the TCMS.

 

[dk1]

Do you see why people are surprised to learn that you were paid to use the new tablets now?

Not in the slightest. You don’t seem to grasp that we had to accept the tablet in the first place which is not part of our job description.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Aug 2024 ==

I said I wasn’t going to get into this discussion again as it will just rotate in circles