Drivers: heads out?

[JB25]

Pretty much impossible in any train when the platform is on the right I would have thought.

It is impossible, hence why Platform staff should (but the lazy side often don't) give you the RA (green flag / light) from adjacent to your cab.

As also stated, in a 377 it is impossible to look back hence the wording in TW1. 455 / 456 though I always look back when departing a station, just to cover my back.

On the issue of Platform staff I was sat at a Station just last week for well over 2 and a half minutes because there were two Platform staff and they were trying to dispatch me in my 377 cameras as it was raining. No way am I taking the fall for their laziness.

 

[313103]

It is impossible, hence why Platform staff should (but the lazy side often don't) give you the RA (green flag / light) from adjacent to your cab.

As also stated, in a 377 it is impossible to look back hence the wording in TW1. 455 / 456 though I always look back when departing a station, just to cover my back.

On the issue of Platform staff I was sat at a Station just last week for well over 2 and a half minutes because there were two Platform staff and they were trying to dispatch me in my 377 cameras as it was raining. No way am I taking the fall for their laziness.

As an aside, I thought that class 377s were fitted (like our class 378s) with DOO cameras on the side of the train that the driver views from his cab screen. Our company are going ahead with DOO on the line I work on as Guard and basing all there safety case on the trains cameras. Yet these switch off at 4mph! not very safe when not even the cab has left the platform.

I also note the point of dispatch with a green flag/light whilst standing right next to your cab, pray do tell me what is the point of that when you have cameras?

There was me thinking that cameras were the be all and end all of modern Driver Only Operation. Take the Guard off the train, and replace he/she with a bat at a station, What a nonsense this is, replace one member of staff with numerous others along the line where they were once not needed. And according to your good self most are lazy anyway!

 

[JB25]

As an aside, I thought that class 377s were fitted (like our class 378s) with DOO cameras on the side of the train that the driver views from his cab screen. Our company are going ahead with DOO on the line I work on as Guard and basing all there safety case on the trains cameras. Yet these switch off at 4mph! not very safe when not even the cab has left the platform.

I also note the point of dispatch with a green flag/light whilst standing right next to your cab, pray do tell me what is the point of that when you have cameras?

There was me thinking that cameras were the be all and end all of modern Driver Only Operation. Take the Guard off the train, and replace he/she with a bat at a station, What a nonsense this is, replace one member of staff with numerous others along the line where they were once not needed. And according to your good self most are lazy anyway!

377s we have DOO cameras but we still have to be dispatched from places like East / West Croydon and Norwood Junction.

Also we don't just drive 377s we have 455/456s which do not have Cameras.

 

[notadriver]

313103 are you going to push for the retention of an on board role on the trains in the same way the Javelin trains have an on board manager ?

 

[313103]

313103 are you going to push for the retention of an on board role on the trains in the same way the Javelin trains have an on board manager ?

The company want us off the trains full stop.

I am not allowed to comment any further on a public forum, otherwise I am liable to be disciplined or dismissed.

At the moment I am looking elsewhere where my previous training and knowledge will be put to good use, rather then being discarded and wasted. However this proving more difficult then I thought, having looked at numerous train operating companies from Northern to Arriva Trains Wales it seems no vacancies are around. I am aware of vacancies on the FGW, however they are only for the short term as the IEP will mean that all trains will be DOO when electrification is completed.

Sorry this has gone off the original topic.

 

[fgwtt1988]

As a driver I always have a look out of the window for various reasons:

• double check the whole train is on the platform
• get fresh air on a hot day
• boredom
• check no one is putting themselves in danger when departing a station
• keep an eye on the late night drunks getting on and off the train
• if it does take longer than normal for the doors to close at a station I do sometimes take a look back purely out of curiosity just to know what is happening, it's never to hurry up the guard at all.

 

[notadriver]

I think all trains should have cameras to assist with things like this.

 

[BestWestern]

Without meaning to be argumentative, there is as of yet no firm evidence to suggest that any further FGW services will be DOO for certain. I agree that it is of course a substantial possibility, however the IEP will not be around for a few years yet, and when it does there will without any doubt be an on board staffing role - DOO on locals is one thing, it is quite another to suggest going staff-less on an Intercity. There will also be some HST sets retained for the forseeable future to operate beyond the wires, and so the Train Manager role will still exist by default, which strengthens the argument to retain it across the board here.

I would advise, very strongly, putting in an application. Even the Customer Host positions (buffet crew) pay in excess of 20k, which isn't too bleak a starting point. Go for TM and worst case scenario, you're looking at a good 5 years or so of solid, healthy wages in the Guard grades before worrying again about DOO.

Anyway, we're definitely off thread now!

 

[Howardh]

Aircraft pilots often stick their head out of the window.

Bit worrying if they do that at 35,000' though....

 

[bronzeonion]

This is the guards job surely to see the train out with head out of the window? This addition to the rulebook because of the James St. incident when it's impossible to do it 50% of the time and completely impossible on some trains really shows a bad attitude of just having something in the rulebook to cover their arses and also trying to write guards out of the railway!

 

[driver9000]

This is the guards job surely to see the train out with head out of the window? This addition to the rulebook because of the James St. incident when it's impossible to do it 50% of the time and completely impossible on some trains really shows a bad attitude of just having something in the rulebook to cover their arses and also trying to write guards out of the railway!

The rule has been in the rulebook for over 100 years and is not an addition because of James Street. When British Railways consolidated the rulebooks of the 'big 4' in 1950 the instruction existed as part of rule 143, later becoming part of section H when the rules were broken up into sections around 1972. In 2003 the rules were broken into modules and it found a home in TW1. Within the rules during this time the Guard had and still has a requirement to check the train out of the station as do any platform staff. It is a team effort and the only differences to the practice today takes into account the fact that modern stock tends to have fixed windows or cabside windows that make it impractical to look back. There is no bad attitude or attempt to write Guards out of the book because of this rule, the railway is trying to prevent it happening again and if reminding Drivers of this long standing rule is one thing they are doing then that is a good thing.

 

[bronzeonion]

The rule has been in the rulebook for over 100 years and is not an addition because of James Street. When British Railways consolidated the rulebooks of the 'big 4' in 1950 the instruction existed as part of rule 143, later becoming part of section H when the rules were broken up into sections around 1972. In 2003 the rules were broken into modules and it found a home in TW1. Within the rules during this time the Guard had and still has a requirement to check the train out of the station as do any platform staff. It is a team effort and the only differences to the practice today takes into account the fact that modern stock tends to have fixed windows or cabside windows that make it impractical to look back. There is no bad attitude or attempt to write Guards out of the book because of this rule, the railway is trying to prevent it happening again and if reminding Drivers of this long standing rule is one thing they are doing then that is a good thing.

Apologies, reading this thread it seemed as if it was a recent addition

 

[Matt Taylor]

There was a recent amendment to module SS1 requiring the guard to remain at the door controls until the train has cleared the platform, this was effective from June 1st 2013. The rulebook makes no comment regarding guards observing the train as it departs from an open window.

There are no opening windows on Desiro stock so if I want to view the train leaving the station I must do so from a cab but that has the advantage of having the emergeny brake plunger on both driver's and secondman's sides. Generally I'm happy to dispatch from a passenger door but at certain high risk locations I'll use a cab if I can.

 

[Starmill]

There was a recent amendment to module SS1 requiring the guard to remain at the door controls until the train has cleared the platform, this was effective from June 1st 2013. The rulebook makes no comment regarding guards observing the train as it departs from an open window.

This applies to all guards!? Must be about 1/4 of guards I watch walk off as soon as they've got 2 back on the buzzer...

 

[the sniper]

Yeah it's stand by the panel now rather than the window, butt in reality on the units I work it means staying in the same position as before. Personally I look out of the window too at most stations, entering and leaving, but this isn't required by the rules and isn't encouraged by my employer.

 

[jon0844]

I'm in Sweden again and just noticed today that the X60 trains have what appear to be retractable mirrors that allow the driver to see down the side of the train without looking out or even opening a window at all.

The platforms are all dead straight on the line I use, but I can't think of any UK trains that have mirrors on them.

 

[notadriver]

Trams do

 

[driver9000]

This applies to all guards!? Must be about 1/4 of guards I watch walk off as soon as they've got 2 back on the buzzer...

The rule requiring Guards to stay at the door until the train had left the platform was removed from the rulebook a few years ago. The reason given at the time was the proliferation of fixed window stock and there being little the Guard could see once the door was closed. As Matt Taylor mentioned the rule has now been put back.

 

[Temple Meads]

The platforms are all dead straight on the line I use, but I can't think of any UK trains that have mirrors on them.

DBS Class 66's do IIRC.

 

[bronzeonion]

This is why I think guards should be in the rear cab rather than in the saloon all the time, so they can observe the platform when the train is departing, especially at busy locations.

 

[Muzer]

Clearances are indeed "that tight". EWS 66s have mirrors but they are very small.

The RAIB report into a platform-train incident at Charing Cross mentions that drivers are expected to be concentrating on the line ahead as the train departs, and where the trains are fitted with in-cab DOO monitors these are blanked out once the train is moving. This is unlike the Underground where in-cab monitors (where fitted) continue to operate as the train leaves the platform and the drivers are expected to check them as a precaution against people falling into the platform gap.

The Charing Cross incident also highlights the amount of time between the doors closing and the train actually departing, and the fact that the platform staff have no way of cancelling the "right away" when this is given by an indicator on the signal. Will we start seeing emergency stop buttons on the platform operating flashing lights down the line, as first appeared on T&W Metro I think?

Maybe a stupid question, but perhaps mirrors that fold out that are designed to be able to hit obstacles and fold back in at high speed? Or would it simply be impossible to design something to be hardy enough?

 

[jon0844]

I think the mirror I saw was motorised and folded in when the train began moving. It also means it won't be hitting anyone on the platform as the train comes in.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

 

[edwin_m]

Manchester T68 trams used to have mirrors that folded in when the doors were closed. Along with (I think) all other modern UK trams they were retrofitted with backward-facing CCTV cameras.

 

[Rugd1022]

When I worked for EWS I always thought the mirrors on our 66s were only ever good for one thing - checking tail lamps on passing trains... a lot of them were damaged or turned inwards though so all you could see were the handrails!

 

[starrymarkb]

I think the mirror I saw was motorised and folded in when the train began moving. It also means it won't be hitting anyone on the platform as the train comes in.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

DB stock has them as do OBB Taurii

I mean would a retracting mirror not be safer then the driver sticking his head out?

 

[TDK]

DB stock has them as do OBB Taurii

I mean would a retracting mirror not be safer then the driver sticking his head out?

I don't think mirrors need to be fitted to trains where a driver can look back for the trains they cannot then I would say CCTV would be the best option, this will be the first step to guard less trains though so in my opinion keep the mirrors off the trains.