Driverless underground?

[fIIsion]

Everytime this debate comes up, whether on this forum or in general, I'm always amazed how creative non-railway people get in dreaming up ideas to effectively see myself and many others out of a job.
As technology and automation become more sophisticated, I'm sure there will be many other industries that will not require human beings anymore.

 

[LE Greys]

Everytime this debate comes up, whether on this forum or in general, I'm always amazed how creative non-railway people get in dreaming up ideas to effectively see myself and many others out of a job.
As technology and automation become more sophisticated, I'm sure there will be many other industries that will not require human beings anymore.

Yes, that is a very good point. I don't imagine that it would happen overnight, but perhaps over decades. I reckon it would work, but as to whether we should do it, I'm sceptical. The tunnels may be virtually a controlled environment, but the overground sections are a much greater concern. Can an automatic system cope with trespassers or stray dogs? Can it allow for weather conditions?

Note: I wouldn't like to see Paris upheld as a model for excellent public transport though. My ticket wouldn't work their gateline at a station one night and there were no staff to assist. Fortunately one of the gates was broken and we could just walk through!

That and the really awkward access to and from many stations, often involving long walks down narrow passageways, narrow escalators and loads of stairs, especially at side-platform stations. Not to mention the horrible smell on the rubber-tyre lines.

 

[A0]

Interestingly there was a TV programme in the last week (can't recall which - something like 'How do they do that') which looked at the new driverless underground system in Singapore.

No reason something similar couldn't be done in London. And unlike Capn Bob's troops, computers don't go on strike.....

 

[starrymarkb]

I can see driverless happening on a new build line (with PEDs etc), but can't see it happening on the existing network

 

[fIIsion]

Interestingly there was a TV programme in the last week (can't recall which - something like 'How do they do that') which looked at the new driverless underground system in Singapore.

No reason something similar couldn't be done in London. And unlike Capn Bob's troops, computers don't go on strike.....

If you think about what you just wrote and consider the practical reality of having a metro system in London comparable to the one in Singapore; considering the amount of money it would take to restructure the exisitng lines to provide a level of safety on par with Singapore not least the fact that it would probably be cheaper to just re-build the whole network from scratch; you would realise the need for drivers on the underground; consider also that whilst computers may not go on strike, they do break down.

 

[Zoe]

In the tube tunnel sections there is minimal chance of obstruction and remote monitoring could be used to detect anything. As for stations, there could be emergency plungers to stop the train and also platform staff could close the doors and decide when the train starts when needed.

 

[fIIsion]

What happens if the train breaks-down; who is going to get it moving again?

What if there is a fire and the train needs to be detrained, who is going to discharge traction current and safely guide people out of the tunnels; bear in mind station staff are on the decline.

Who stops the train if the points have been incorrectly set? or the train overruns a red signal/platform (happens on ATO trains quite often)

How does the train stop if somebody is pushed in front of it?

Have people forgotton the actions of drivers during the London bombings?

 

[j0hn0]

What happens if the train breaks-down; who is going to get it moving again?

What if there is a fire and the train needs to be detrained, who is going to discharge traction current and safely guide people out of the tunnels; bear in mind station staff are on the decline.

Who stops the train if the points have been incorrectly set? or the train overruns a red signal/platform (happens on ATO trains quite often)

How does the train stop if somebody is pushed in front of it?

Have people forgotton the actions of drivers during the London bombings?

Probably, the most recent in their minds are the strikes.

There would have to be a conductor of sorts who is trained to drive. Dunno if that would make any improvement on what we have now.

I think it's wrong to fear being replaced by machines though. Ask how many admin people have been replaced already through the advent of computers? Everything in my job is about trying to automate things to decrease human input. I believe that it is a fact of life, why else would we have all these labour saving devices that we do?

Train drivers will just have to adapt, realistically they either need station staff or a train manager on each train anyway but at least if they do strike, the trains can keep running.

Train drivers still get a lot of respect, but they get absolutely no sympathy from the private sector when they strike. If you choose a job, that's your lot. If you don't like it, find another job. Why should the whole country be held to ransom every time Bob Crow decides to throw his toys out of the pram?

Admit that you chose the job because you enjoy it and because it is secure, NOT for massive financial rewards. For everyone else its' the other way round.

Horses for courses so stop forcing your ire on us please

 

[Zoe]

There would have to be a conductor of sorts who is trained to drive. Dunno if that would make any improvement on what we have now.

If manual driving is ever needed I would expect it to only be in an emergency and so they would only need to be trained to drive at say 5 - 10 mph on sight. This is very different to driving at line speed in service.

 

[fIIsion]

Sorry to shatter your illusion, but I 'chose' my job out of necessity of paying bills and feeding my children; i think you'll find this is quite common amongst other drivers and hence a rather defensive attitude to people who want to see a driverless underground.
I do not always agree with strikes but this attitude of just finding another job if your not happy is narrow-minded and quite frankly regressive.

I would like to think that we have progressed from the times of under-age children scampering about un-protected machinery and that the collective action of workers over the years has provided you a relatively safe transport system to get you to and from your place of work.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If manual driving is ever needed I would expect it to only be in an emergency and so they would only need to be trained to drive at say 5 - 10 mph on sight. This is very different to driving at line speed in service.

Do you realise (probably not) that automatic train running is not 100% reliable and in fact breaks down quite often. In these situations, the driver is expected to manually drive the train at line speed.

 

[BestWestern]

I think it's fair to say that modifying an existing system to some form of 'Driver-only' is entirely different to a new-build network. As somebody mentioned above, the existing tunnels don't allow any space whatsoever for evacuation walkways and such like, meaning that in any form of emergency involving a stopped train you will almost certainly end up with commuters bailing out and fumbling their way down a pitch black tunnel with a juice rail under them. People WILL panic in any percieved emergency - and, with no offence intended, those who post on here with a plethora of opinions but no actual operational railway experience will have to take our word for that - and in a Tube tunnel that has the potential to be catastrophic. I also doubt very much whether the travelling public are likely to be in favour of a Driverless train with the current high-risk of terrorism. Then you have to rip out the entire signalling systems and start again, and we know from recent experience that even relatively modest upgrades cost silly money and take forever and a day.

Some posters (one in particular) on this forum seem to have many views on just how casually we could operate railway systems in this country without Drivers, Guards etc etc. The term 'Safety Critical' describes the jobs we do, and is pretty self explanatory. We aren't trained and retrained, tested and retested, and subject to a whole host of 'fitness for duty' screening and testing etc for no reason. The railways need to be operated safely, by competent people; not on a wing and a prayer by a computer and a bloke in a control room with an egg sarnie and a copy of the Sun.

 

[jopsuk]

Also, as the Victoria line is showing, just upgrading the ATO system is fraught enough with problems. On a new-build system, you can more easily test before going "live".

 

[Mojo]

Also, as the Victoria line is showing, just upgrading the ATO system is fraught enough with problems. On a new-build system, you can more easily test before going "live".

Not aware of any problems on the Victoria. They haven't even started the changeover yet.

 

[Gavelex]

Believe it or not, restroking (for the benefit of others; introduced after the 1993 incident where a T/Op on the Picc used his bag to weigh down the dead mans handle and the train departed with him on the platform after he got out to check out what was going on) is only just being introduced on the 1992 stock (when driven in Manual of course)!

They have had it since introduction... I think you might be thinking of in ATO, where if the pilot light is lost, then gained again the train starts motoring again automaticly?

 

[DavyCrocket]

The Piccadilly line incident did happen. He said that his train had been taken. It did go to Crown Court and he might have even gotten a custodial, I can't recall. Have a google

 

[trentside]

According to an archived article on the LURS website, he was prosecuted but no record could be found of the punishment received.

 

[317653]

I don not like the idea, firstly there would be no drivers to ensure people are clear of the doores, and secondly tif there was an emergency it could be fatal and cause severe disruption to what they already cause