• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Driverless underground?

driverless trains on the underground what do you think?

  • do you think it will be a success

    Votes: 29 45.3%
  • do you think it will be a failure

    Votes: 35 54.7%

  • Total voters
    64
Status
Not open for further replies.

railwaybuddy

Member
Joined
30 Nov 2010
Messages
7
Boris johnson threatens to automate the whole underground system ( like the DLR system)
what do you think on Boris johnsons new idea?
like it or not? and do you think it will be a success or failure???
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

moonrakerz

Member
Joined
10 Feb 2009
Messages
870
Regardless of whether it is Boris's idea or "Red Ken's" - it seems to be the next logical step.
Most accidents, train/car/air/marine, are caused by human error: remove the human - remove the error !
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
Regardless of whether it is Boris's idea or "Red Ken's" - it seems to be the next logical step.
Most accidents, train/car/air/marine, are caused by human error: remove the human - remove the error !
Last time I suggested self-driving cars, people didn't seem very keen on here even though they could replace driving within 10 years.
 

FGWman

Member
Joined
10 Dec 2010
Messages
177
In Paris metro line 14 has been totally automatic since being opened in 1998. There is no one on board.

More radically line 1 a traditional line is currently being converted to full automatic operation. If this is successfull then other lines will be converted. I would not be surprised if in 20 years time all paris metro trains are fully automatic.

Its the way of the future. Its coming just the timing is uncertain.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
21,170
Location
0035
My preferred option would be to move towards ATO (trains are far quicker and generally more reliable), but with a person on board who would be competent in dealing with evacuations and customer service, etc. and monitoring the doors, ideally this person could be competently trained in a short time.
 

455/8

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2005
Messages
146
I'm sure I read somewhere that it was tried once before and the commuters/passengers felt worried and reluctant to travel on trains underground because there was no visable driver in the cab of the train, so to solve this a member of staff was put up the front to be seen as the train came into the stations, the passengers saw a person and assumed there was a driver problem solved in a round about way, however this member of staff was only there to be seen and to start the train and nothing else.



Alan
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
My preferred option would be to move towards ATO (trains are far quicker and generally more reliable), but with a person on board who would be competent in dealing with evacuations and customer service, etc. and monitoring the doors, ideally this person could be competently trained in a short time.
Would they be able to manually drive the train if needed?
 

FGWman

Member
Joined
10 Dec 2010
Messages
177
I'm sure I read somewhere that it was tried once before and the commuters/passengers felt worried and reluctant to travel on trains underground because there was no visable driver in the cab of the train, so to solve this a member of staff was put up the front to be seen as the train came into the stations, the passengers saw a person and assumed there was a driver problem solved in a round about way, however this member of staff was only there to be seen and to start the train and nothing else.



Alan

You are thinking of the victoria line. They could have put the operator in the rear as all they do is check the doors but using the point you made they decided to put them in the front.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
21,170
Location
0035
Would they be able to manually drive the train if needed?
What happens in Paris?

Note: I wouldn't like to see Paris upheld as a model for excellent public transport though. My ticket wouldn't work their gateline at a station one night and there were no staff to assist. Fortunately one of the gates was broken and we could just walk through!
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
It's not going to happen any time soon. It certainly isn't going to happen on any of the current ATO lines, as it would require a huge change to the signalling systems for even what seems like a relatively small change. If you still required a human on board for door closing, that wouldn't solve what Boris wants it to solve- the issue of being prone to strikes- as clearly the human element would still be able to unionise. None of the ATO lines have automatic depots- think Paris Metro lines do have some automatic stabling- so this would require big investment. And the Central tends to go to coded manual outside during bad weather- Jubilee too?

Anyway, it all came up during a pretty extraordinary sequence of events during which Boris accused ASLEF tube drivers of having planned to strike on the Royal Wedding day as a follow up to their Christmas strike- none of which was true, as it was RMT Station staff that were on strike over Christmas, and not one union could be found, not least ASLEF, that had seriously considered a Royal Wedding strike, let alone conducted a ballot on the matter. The station staff are pretty important to the safe running of even an automated system, at peak times especially.

Basically, it was bluster to detract from the failure of his "never negotiate with unions" and "I'll ban strikes" policies.
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
If you still required a human on board for door closing, that wouldn't solve what Boris wants it to solve- the issue of being prone to strikes- as clearly the human element would still be able to unionise.
You could have a train set to dwell for a certain time period for example 30 seconds and then close the doors. A passenger operated button inside the train could in theory close all the train idoors immediately to minimize dwell time if no-one is getting on.
 

142094

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2009
Messages
8,789
Location
Newcastle
Bad idea - look what happened to the peson who fell onto the tracks on the DLR and wasn't seen in time. Could have been much different if a driver had actually been there.
 

Zoe

Established Member
Joined
22 Aug 2008
Messages
5,905
Bad idea - look what happened to the peson who fell onto the tracks on the DLR and wasn't seen in time. Could have been much different if a driver had actually been there.
You could prevent this by installed platform edge doors at all stations.
 

142094

Established Member
Joined
7 Nov 2009
Messages
8,789
Location
Newcastle
You could prevent this by installed platform edge doors at all stations.

I suppose you could, although to do all the underground stations would take a long time, cost a lot and mean a lot of station closures.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
I'm not promoting the idea, but it works well enough in Copenhagen...

I appreciate this- but I don't think that's even what Boris was advocating. Plus, he seemed to be suggesting it as something that could be done by late April.

As to platform edge doors, one of the major problems is that really you'd need to expand the platform cavities somewhat first on most of the system- of course, on the Northern the opportunity could perhaps also be taken to lengthen the platforms if you were carrying out such ridiculously disruptive works.
 

ushawk

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2010
Messages
1,965
Location
Eastbourne
I think it shouldnt go further than ATO so in case something does go wrong, there is always someone there. That and no jobs get lost, which the unions would be happy about.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
Quite- but the only reason Boris wants automation is to cut out the unions.
 

Gavelex

Member
Joined
9 Sep 2006
Messages
461
Location
london
What if I don't think it will be a success on LU, nor the future of LU? What do I vote for then?
 

SteamontheMet

Member
Joined
5 Mar 2010
Messages
88
Location
In my nice Cosy Signal Box :)
At current only Victoria and Central have ATO (and if you want to include the DLR), The Jubliee is currently being upgraded to ATO but for whole driverless trains on the Underground, it will take decades and will be very costly as many have already mentioned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12214515

having had many cab-rides on the central line and having discussions with ATO drivers, in open sections especially in poor weather (Ice, Rain, Snow, Leaves, etc) ATO has troubles as the train tries to reach its optimum highest safest speed between stations to increase efficiency and no coast is provided (accelerate and brake) in poor weather the train in ATO will have a rough ride and sometimes results in Overruns and Underruns.

One section of the central line (WB Epping-Theydon Bois) the line is smooth down hill gradient and the train in ATO reaches its Highest Safe Speed (80KMH) but the hill causes it to exceed this limit applying the brakes back to 2-5KMH below then accelerating back to the applied speed.
This results in a constant jolting over and under 80Kmh until Theydon.

As for total driverless trains, I personally think its a long way off but the invertible will happen.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,774
I reckon at some (very) distant point in the future we may see fully automatic trains on the mainline- but not any time soon. And driverless trains don't stop station staff, maintainence staff etc striking.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
21,170
Location
0035
At current only Victoria and Central have ATO (and if you want to include the DLR), The Jubliee is currently being upgraded to ATO but for whole driverless trains on the Underground, it will take decades and will be very costly as many have already mentioned.
The Jubilee line Stratford - Dollis Hill also should have all trains running in ATO. Every time I look most seem to be, there's just one or two in ATP probably because of faults.
 

ChrisCooper

Established Member
Joined
7 Sep 2005
Messages
1,787
Location
Loughborough
Another thing to take into account is the open sections. DLR is mostly elevated or in tunnels, and the rest is well fenced off. London Underground has large open sections where various obstructions, including people, can get on the line. DLR too has train captains who are not only able to operate the doors, but in various circumstances will operate the train from the front in the same way as TOs on LU ATO lines, and they can manually drive the trains in emergencies. It's also much busier, meaning there is more risk from passengers falling infront of trains, as well as problems with boarding.

For fully automatic trains doors would have to be designed to detect if anything was trapped (which could be abused by latecomers to get doors to re-open), and dwell times might be longer, particularly at times of late running (a human operator would be able to see that there was no-one else trying to board or alight and close the doors, wheras an automatic train would be restricted to a set minimum time. At very busy times despatch staff would be needed anyway to close doors and clear trains to depart (I think all but the quietest fully automatic systems have platform staff in control).

As has been said the human element will never be removed, including in the safety critical role, whether it's station staff or those in the control centres, and there would be plenty of those needed for such a big network. Like others have said, these can all go on strike too, as can maintenance staff. We're getting into serious AI before humans can be totally removed from the loop (and by that time it will be the computers that go on strike, or worse).

Emergencies would be another problem. Imagine a train brakes down in a tunnel, perhaps in such a way that it looses communication with the outside world (persuming you would have telemetry and CCTV feed from the train to the control centre and voice and control feed back to the train), maybe due to terrorism. You've then got a load of passengers stuck underground and the nearest competant person is at best at the next station and with no way to communicate with the passengers. No side walkways either, unlike modern systems, so detraining is via the track. With no staff passengers are likely to panic much quicker if stopped in tunnel, even under routine circumstances, unless an explanation was given fast by the control centre. At least with staff presence, passengers will be reassured that everything is under control.
 

jd

Member
Joined
9 Jun 2005
Messages
675
What happens in Paris?

Note: I wouldn't like to see Paris upheld as a model for excellent public transport though. My ticket wouldn't work their gateline at a station one night and there were no staff to assist. Fortunately one of the gates was broken and we could just walk through!

It was probably broken by somebody before you who was having the same problem!
 

DJ737

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2009
Messages
364
Location
Melbourne, Australia
G'day

There has been driverless trains on the Victoria before.

On day in the late '80's I was working a NB train and at Highbury, a door stuck, as usual I had the start buttons depressed while i was closing the doors.

Stupid me, I went out thru the centre door across the coupler, went back and kicked the door closed, train departed, highly embarrassing to say the least, should have left the droplight down. :roll:

Still shouldn't have happened, but it did, I believe changes were made to the Auto Box after this event.

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
21,170
Location
0035
Still shouldn't have happened, but it did, I believe changes were made to the Auto Box after this event.
Believe it or not, restroking (for the benefit of others; introduced after the 1993 incident where a T/Op on the Picc used his bag to weigh down the dead mans handle and the train departed with him on the platform after he got out to check out what was going on) is only just being introduced on the 1992 stock (when driven in Manual of course)!
 

DJ737

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2009
Messages
364
Location
Melbourne, Australia
G'day

At least I had the code destoyer to hit to stop the train, there was a brief pause between when I kicked the door and the line breakers clunked in when I thought this ain't a good idea. :oops:

Cheers
DJ737
Melbourne, Australia
 

notadriver

Established Member
Joined
1 Oct 2010
Messages
3,734
On mainline trains the power controller isn't spring loaded thank god. There is a foot operated combined drivers safety device (DSD) and Vigilance which i believe is better as you dont have to keep your hand on the controller all the time.
 

DavyCrocket

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2006
Messages
670
Believe it or not, restroking (for the benefit of others; introduced after the 1993 incident where a T/Op on the Picc used his bag to weigh down the dead mans handle and the train departed with him on the platform after he got out to check out what was going on) is only just being introduced on the 1992 stock (when driven in Manual of course)!

He then said that his train was taken.
He then spent some time at Her Majesty's pleasure.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top