'Driverless' trains specified for Thameslink rail upgrade

[Metroland]

Thameslink trains through central London will drive themselves under plans revealed by the government this week (23 February).

The Department for Transport says the next generation of Thameslink trains, due to enter service from 2012 to support infrastructure enhancements delivered by the Thameslink Programme, will be equipped with Automatic Train Operation (ATO). Drivers will operate train doors and oversee passenger safety but the train driving itself will be handled by computers and high-tech signalling equipment.

Introduction of ATO on the Thameslink route, currently operated by train operator First Capital Connect, will be a first for the UK National Rail network. Various ATO systems are currently used on the Docklands Light Railway and the Jubilee and Victoria Tube lines but the technology is largely untried on Britain's main rail network.

Senior civil servants and rail staff have been forced to consider ATO after it emerged that plans for 24 trains per hour in each direction through central London, as promised by the Thameslink Programme, were insufficiently robust and were unlikely to be deliverable for more than a few hours without delays and disruption. Analysis conducted between April and November 2008 found that punctuality above the 93% public performance measure (PPM) could be achieved with a maximum of 20 trains per hour.

According to the DfT, computer modelling has shown that ATO will deliver approximately four trains per hour more through the central London Thameslink corridor than the best that could be achieved robustly with manual driving and conventional signalling within the limits of professional driving standards. Operational challenges for the core section include steep gradients, low speed limits ands short distances between stations which require trains to be precisely driven to avoid knock-on delays to the next services. Under the ATO plans trains will continue to be driven manually on Thameslink routes beyond central London.

http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/story.php?id=5654

Members of the Crossrail project team will help finalise the technical details of the new Thameslink train fleet in a bid to create a national specification for a high capcity urban train control system.

In a first for the UK National Rail network ministers have agreed for the new Thameslink trains, due to enter service from 2012, to use automatic train operation (ATO) in order to minimise station dwell times and maintain the 24 trains per hour in each direction planned under the Thameslink Programme. Recognising that a similar train design will form the basis of units required for the east-west Crossrail route less than five years later, Crossrail staff will be given a say in how the Thameslink trains should be built.

http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/story.php?id=5655

 

[ukrob]

I'm sure we knew this a few months ago - or did I dream it?

 

[gordonthemoron]

The München s-bahn tunnel has up to 24 trains an hour in each direction through the centre of the city. Don't know if it has ATO and there are sometimes hold-ups, but it does have something which thameslink/crossrail could benefit from (if there is space).

The 3 busiest stations (hauptbahnhof, karlsplatz & marienplatz)have 2 platforms for each direction. Alighting passengers get off one side of the train and joining passengers get on the other side at the same time. This does reduce dwell time

 

[me123]

^I've always wondered if that reduces dwell time or adds to confusion. If iw's working elsewhere, it obviously works, though.

I assume by ATO they main that it's like the system used on the Glasgow Subway, ie there's still a "driver" who can take over if necessary. I don't trust technology enough, personally!

 

[O L Leigh]

Hmm. Not sure about this one.

I can see how ATO works in an enclosed Metro environment, but I feel a little uncomfortable about in on NR. If you're not actually driving the train, there is the temptation not to pay as much attention to what's going on around (I know I'd be tempted). You've basically taken the role of a passenger with the responsibility of look-out. This isn't so much of a problem on, say, the Victoria Line because there's almost nothing a driver would need to react to. However, the situation is very different on NR when you could have ramblers, animals and PWay wandering all over the place and any number of other hazards that you would need to be aware of. But when you're actually driving the train you are a whole lot more engaged.

I guess it's inevitable that ATO on NR will happen at some point, but it will still need to be very carefully managed.

O L Leigh

 

[ukrob]

Hmm. Not sure about this one.

I can see how ATO works in an enclosed Metro environment, but I feel a little uncomfortable about in on NR. If you're not actually driving the train, there is the temptation not to pay as much attention to what's going on around (I know I'd be tempted). You've basically taken the role of a passenger with the responsibility of look-out. This isn't so much of a problem on, say, the Victoria Line because there's almost nothing a driver would need to react to. However, the situation is very different on NR when you could have ramblers, animals and PWay wandering all over the place and any number of other hazards that you would need to be aware of. But when you're actually driving the train you are a whole lot more engaged.

I guess it's inevitable that ATO on NR will happen at some point, but it will still need to be very carefully managed.

O L Leigh

It is only through the central section in tunnels.

 

[O L Leigh]

Ah right. Thanks.

Even so, are we seeing the thin end of the wedge...?

O L Leigh

 

[mrcheek]

I love the driverless trains on the DLR. Nothing like sitting right at the very front and pretending youre driving the thing! Im really glad theyre going to bring similar ones in elsewhere.

 

[Failed Unit]

Ah right. Thanks.

Even so, are we seeing the thin end of the wedge...?

O L Leigh

I doubt it for the reasons you state, how does the computer react to an obstruction on the track. All driverless systems I know of even if open air (such as the DLR) have no chance of obstruction by reasonable means.

 

[73110]

I posted a reply here, the second post but I see it has gone. Why?

 

[jon0844]

As long as the driver still has full control most of the time (and is therefore trained and paid accordingly), this sounds like an aid that will benefit everyone in the long run.

I wonder if the unions will see it the same way?

 

[MCR247]

I love the driverless trains on the DLR. Nothing like sitting right at the very front and pretending youre driving the thing! Im really glad theyre going to bring similar ones in elsewhere.

You wont be able to sit vat the front, IIRC it will be a normal looking train!

 

[mrcheek]

You wont be able to sit vat the front, IIRC it will be a normal looking train!

well thats no good then. Why have a driver if the train drives itself? This is pointless. I assumed by "driver" they meant the guy who walsk up and down the train and does the doors.

 

[ukrob]

well thats no good then. Why have a driver if the train drives itself? This is pointless. I assumed by "driver" they meant the guy who walsk up and down the train and does the doors.

Have you actually read this thread? See post #6.

 

[jopsuk]

well thats no good then. Why have a driver if the train drives itself? This is pointless. I assumed by "driver" they meant the guy who walsk up and down the train and does the doors.

If you read what was posted, the idea is that the ATO only functions for the portion through the tunnels (where they plan to eventually run 24tph). The idea seems to be that they think the computer will reliably drive somewhat more agresively- I'd assume (but would be gladly corrected) that some form of moving-block is proposed as well?

Outside of the core section the driver will control the train as normal- it wouldn't be at all sensible to mix automatic and non-automatic trains on the same line, and would require massive resignalling. This way, they can test and prove the technology in a relatively closed enivironment before they consider how to allow for the issues mentioned, such as the increased potential for obstructions outside of deep cuttings/tunnels/bridges/viaducts.

 

[73110]

As I stated earlier in my 'missing' post, someone a while ago mentioned this and most people laughed him out of the crew room.. Seems there is more to this as he also explained the trains would be driverless between St Pancs and Blackfriars. (and the reverse obviously.)

The trains in question are to be the trains due for delivery in 2012.

 

[Metroland]

Its not really surprising, most of the new metro systems/lines going in now around the world are driverless. Austraila is looking at automating freight trains.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news_view/article/2008/06/8554/rio_tinto_to_go_driverless.html

 

[DavyCrocket]

Hmm. Not sure about this one.

I can see how ATO works in an enclosed Metro environment, but I feel a little uncomfortable about in on NR. If you're not actually driving the train, there is the temptation not to pay as much attention to what's going on around (I know I'd be tempted). You've basically taken the role of a passenger with the responsibility of look-out. This isn't so much of a problem on, say, the Victoria Line because there's almost nothing a driver would need to react to. However, the situation is very different on NR when you could have ramblers, animals and PWay wandering all over the place and any number of other hazards that you would need to be aware of. But when you're actually driving the train you are a whole lot more engaged.

I guess it's inevitable that ATO on NR will happen at some point, but it will still need to be very carefully managed.

O L Leigh

The Central line is ATO too and manages okay with it. No instances of Train Operators doing what you say.
As I doubt the top speed through the Thameslink central London section won't be as fast as 60mph, I don't see an issue!

 

[gordonthemoron]

I think Munich s-bahn top speed is only 50mph. and they certainly don't reach that in the tunnel

 

[mackenzie_blu]

The idea is that the ATO will kick in at Blackfriars and drive between stations to St Pancras International where the driver will once again take full control. Im sure the driver is expect to hold a control allowing him to stop the train or take over if the system fails or he sees something. Point out that Pway and drivers will still be an issue due to Smithfield sidings and that Farringdon has some open air section so it could be affected by the weather (see Central Line when the trains lose grip and does a EM brake!).

The theory is that drivers cannot cope quick enough to give the need 2-3min headways and only a computer can cope. What they fail to realise is the highest tph in London was (I think) the Northern Line or one of the SSL and was able to do around 40 tph 60-70 years ago. I know safety changed since then but 24tph is doable but with high crowd levels expected maybe this is the way to go. Note that Crossrail will be the same but better do to PEDs in the tunnels platforms. Something Thameslinks core wont have.

 

[bluenoxid]

ATO is not about coping quick enough, it is about optimising the stopping and starting profile of the train. My main worry is not it rolling on to the network but how the system copes with a varying fleet as train performance can vary widely across the fleet. Just fit new tyres to a train and the performance can change by quite a bit. I will be interested to see how the computer software copes.

 

[westcoaster]

i wonder if we will still have to drop and raise the panto?

or will the super computer do it.

 

[Edvid]

The new trains will allow autochangeovers at the appropriate points, although drivers can initiate manual changeovers if required.

 

[Juniper Driver]

This ATO stuff does not really surprise me.The technology is there.Obviously.

 

[shinkansen09]

ATO is not about coping quick enough, it is about optimising the stopping and starting profile of the train. My main worry is not it rolling on to the network but how the system copes with a varying fleet as train performance can vary widely across the fleet. Just fit new tyres to a train and the performance can change by quite a bit. I will be interested to see how the computer software copes.

Automatic Train Control :roll:
The Japanese Automatic Train Control system (which is really semi-automatic) works to control the running speed and stopping of the train at signals. The Taiwan version also stops the train to + or - 2cm. The driver starts the train and regulates the running speeds according to the on-board computers navigation timings. Thus the driver is not sitting there getting bored as he must make sure the train is not early or late by + or - 10 seconds at stations where he stops or passing times at set locations.... +/-10 seconds.....that what you call punctuality!
As for coping with unit variations in a fleet......the tolorance in the braking system covers heavily loaded trains or poor braking performance.....each coach applies more braking effort if it is individually more heavily loaded also.