Driver using a bit of initiative

[Skimpot flyer]

On a semi-fast FCC service from Hatfield to Kings Cross recently that was scheduled to call at Potters Bar and Finsbury Park only, the train was held at a red signal at New Barnet, awaiting a path onto the up fast line. As people on the platform stepped forward, presumably unaware this was not a planned stop, he - to my surprise - opened the doots to allow them on board. How refreshingly sensible was that, given there was going to be a delay of around 90secs anyway, since a faster service had only just whizzed past?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It may not be a good idea to publicise this driver's actions as he may be disciplined for his action if it was not authorised. One of the arguments in the past for not using your own initiative in such situations, that you wouldn't consider an emergency, is that a driver cannot see the 'bigger picture' and in doing something unplanned may cause a problem further down the line.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Point taken about the publicity aspect, but I don't see how allowing people to board when he was going to be stationary for longer than the normal station dwell-time anyhow would present risk to the public or to punctuality. He was being delayed by the signal already!

 

[SS4]

Point taken about the publicity aspect, but I don't see how allowing people to board when he was going to be stationary for longer than the normal station dwell-time anyhow would present risk to the public or to punctuality. He was being delayed by the signal already!

If he needed to take off sharply for whatever reason whilst passengers are still boarding. What if there was a disabled passenger or one with heavy luggage holding up boarding?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Numerous reasons could arise. Say a train was tipped out further along the line and the intention was to use your train to pick up the detrained passengers from that station. If he had picked up additional passengers unauthorised at one stop there would now be less capacity to deal with the problem with the earlier detrained service. Am not saying that it would have made much difference in the case you mention but it is an example about not doing anything off your own initiative as you don't see the bigger picture.

Also note that it was FCC - the passengers who boarded at New Barnet were lucky there were no revenue staff on the train.

 

[yorkie]

Point taken about the publicity aspect, but I don't see how allowing people to board when he was going to be stationary for longer than the normal station dwell-time anyhow would present risk to the public or to punctuality. He was being delayed by the signal already!

Management don't see it like that!

However there are some trains that are booked to call additionally at New Barnet, such as today the 1007 and 1108. Perhaps it was one of those trains? Perhaps they are not advertised at Hatfield as calling at New Barnet?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also note that it was FCC - the passengers who boarded at New Barnet were lucky there were no revenue staff on the train.

Why?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Management don't see it like that!

However there are some trains that are booked to call additionally at New Barnet, such as today the 1007 and 1108. Perhaps it was one of those trains? Perhaps they are not advertised at Hatfield as calling at New Barnet?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why?

Well I wouldn't put it past them to penalty fare people or charge them from the previous scheduled stop.

 

[michael769]

One should consider the possibility that he had been instructed to make an additional stop to pick the passengers up due to another service being disrupted.

 

[southerner2174]

Management will pull up drivers on making unscheduled stops that they were not authorised to make, they will see from the download that doors were released and will question the driver for it in the same kind of way they will investigate the reason why a driver has had a fail to call.

 

[richw]

I'd imagine he was under instruction to call,

 

[northwichcat]

I've been on Norwich-Liverpool services that have effectively stopped at Deansgate (with the doors remaining closed) because of a red signal. Given a stopper follows a few minutes later and the LED displays show the stopper calling at most stations I think it's sensible in that instance for the doors to remain closed to avoid confused passengers for stations like Irlam boarding the fast train.

 

[Simon11]

Additionally, if this were to become the 'normal' as soon as any trains stop in a platform waiting for the signal, passengers will walk towards the train waiting for the doors to open. If passengers are too close to the train, the driver won't be able to move the train off.

 

[AeroSpace]

How do the passengers at New Barnet know which stations the train will call at afterwards?

 

[Aictos]

One should consider the possibility that he had been instructed to make an additional stop to pick the passengers up due to another service being disrupted.

Exactly, he might have been instructed by station staff at Potters Bar to call additionally at New Barnet - I've had a East Coast guard in a platform before asking me for permission to open the doors on his HST before as he was going to be there sometime due to disruption to which I refused on the grounds that his control are the only ones to authorise this especially as he wasn't booked to stop there.

How do the passengers at New Barnet know which stations the train will call at afterwards?

Because it will or should be announced/displayed on the station's CIS system, as a example I had to request a terminating service continue onto Stevenage to provide onward connections simply because if it hadn't then there would have been a 1hr 30 mins with no services from Hertford to Stevenage.

As it arrived, it announced that it was calling additionally at Watton at Stone and Stevenage plus the driver made the announcement BUT had permission not been given then the driver would not have done this.

This was a far quicker and faster solution then booking taxis for passengers.

 

[RPI]

Stopping out of course could see the driver given a rollocking and possibly pud on some kind of monitoring. I strongly suspect that he had been given an SSO to call there.

 

[telstarbox]

In the days of non-locked slam-door trains, did passengers ever try to board trains which had stopped at the platform but were not scheduled to call?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Don't know about boarding, but they definately got off the train in places!

 

[221129]

When I was on Work Experience on a FGW HST There was the TM Another member of staff and Myself located along the train on approch to Reading West In case of a Red aspect at the end of the platform to stop and shout at people if they attempt to open the doors. (This followed a series of Door on Catch Incidents)

 

[Westboy]

I was about to mention Reading West. I have often been sat on a train alongside the platform waiting to proceed and wondered if anyone has ever tried to board.

 

[12CSVT]

In the days of non-locked slam-door trains, did passengers ever try to board trains which had stopped at the platform but were not scheduled to call?

On the Southern region it probably happened every time a peak-time train was held by a red signal in a station platform.

 

[RPI]

Most drivers if they get a red at Reading West stop before the platform with just the front of the powercar on.

 

[Nick W]

Often drivers of slam doors were instructed to stop before the platform to prevent people boarding an alighting to prevent the issue.

But this raises a good point - should any train that stops at a platform, booked or otherwise, not go through formal dispatch procedures, particularly if people have made contact with the train?

 

[tsr]

...particularly if people have made contact with the train?

I don't know about that.

There's always situations which make me shudder when I think how easily they could go wrong. For example, when a train that is scheduled to run fast through East Croydon stops for a red signal at one end of the platform, it will generally be wholly in the platform, given the alignment and signal spacing. Even if this train is clearly branded "Express" and/or announced as non-stopping (generally by the automatic announcer), at least one passenger will generally attempt to board whilst it is stationary. This will principally involve them waving their arms at it and jabbing the "Door Open" button or attempting to open the guard's door. When they are advised (normally by staff or, in some cases, another passenger!) that the train does not call at the station and that it will depart shortly, they usually move away, but not always. Despite the fact that the train has a single slam door which could easily have been tampered with, and this could be dangerous, and also the fact that the passenger could have become tangled in the train or may be in contact with it in other ways, it is not normal for dispatch procedure to be followed, and the signal changing to Off will generally result in immediate departure.

One of these days, a passenger will become caught up in the train, with serious consequences; then all the staff will doubtless have to follow very careful procedures. Until then... who knows what "should" be done?

 

[O L Leigh]

I certainly wouldn't advocate allowing passengers on when stopped out-of-course without getting clearance first. It can actually cause many more problems than it solves, what with over-carrying passengers, failure to understand the stopping patterns, PASSCOM activations, etc, etc, etc.

However, I have released the doors to allow passengers OFF the train if it looks like we're going to be delayed in a platform for a long period of time and the conditions on-train are likely to get particularly trying (e.g. overcrowded or high temperatures).

O L Leigh

 

[Skimpot flyer]

@ yorkie
Had no idea of the debate I would initiate!
I was on the 1054 from Hatfield this morning, which would have reached New Barnet around 1108 so seems it probably WAS booked to call there after all. My mistake
The additional call was not announced on the station information displays or on-board the train, though. I guess the people at New Barnet knew in advance that they had an extra London-bound train, judging from the numbers who boarded!

 

[sheff1]

In the days of non-locked slam-door trains, did passengers ever try to board trains which had stopped at the platform but were not scheduled to call?

All the time.

I remember one such such incident where the guard shouted 'you can't get on here, it doesn't stop'. 'OK' came the reply ' if it doesn't stop, I haven't got on'

 

[142094]

I don't know about that.

There's always situations which make me shudder when I think how easily they could go wrong. For example, when a train that is scheduled to run fast through East Croydon stops for a red signal at one end of the platform, it will generally be wholly in the platform, given the alignment and signal spacing. Even if this train is clearly branded "Express" and/or announced as non-stopping (generally by the automatic announcer), at least one passenger will generally attempt to board whilst it is stationary. This will principally involve them waving their arms at it and jabbing the "Door Open" button or attempting to open the guard's door. When they are advised (normally by staff or, in some cases, another passenger!) that the train does not call at the station and that it will depart shortly, they usually move away, but not always. Despite the fact that the train has a single slam door which could easily have been tampered with, and this could be dangerous, and also the fact that the passenger could have become tangled in the train or may be in contact with it in other ways, it is not normal for dispatch procedure to be followed, and the signal changing to Off will generally result in immediate departure.

One of these days, a passenger will become caught up in the train, with serious consequences; then all the staff will doubtless have to follow very careful procedures. Until then... who knows what "should" be done?

I've seen a few instances of people trying to board ECS services at stations where the train has been held, even if that train has no carriage lights on and clearly states 'Not in Service' on the destination indicators. Unfortunately I don't think there is much more that can be done, as most of the time the passengers in question are oblivious to what is going on or distracted by something else (i.e. earphones).

 

[Cherry_Picker]

The most common reason this happens is because you get a special stop order, which happens every day somewhere on the network.

I've opened the doors when I have been held at a platform in times of disruption and I have known we will be held a significant amount of time (ie 20+ minutes) but just opening them at a red is insanity. What happens if you are right away to the terminus after you leave that platform and the guy who got on at the back who only wanted to go two stops pulls the pass comm when you go flying through his station at 90mph? It simply isnt worth it.

 

[ReverendFozz]

I remember years ago coming back to Durham on a diverted GNER service from London, the line was closed between Northallerton and just North of Darlington, I am sure the diversion went through Yarm, Eaglescliffe and Stockton, the train came to a standstill at Stockton I think, there was a group of lads from Thornaby, they asked for the guard to let them off at Stockton, but he was adamant they were going nowhere, he said pretty much 'the doors would only be opened over his dead body' as they werent scheduled or booked to pick up or set down there.

Sent by Comrade Marxista Fozzski

 

[fsmr]

About 7 years back, i took my 5 year old son on a 125 from Kettering to Leicester return on a Spring Sundays diversion over the then Freight only and diversion line via Corby and Manton junction to Melton and Syston junction. The train then runs on the up line from Syston back south down into Leicester and then the driver switches ends to head North on the down line to Nottingham , with the opposite for the return. We arrived back at Leicester after a wander around Leicester to find a Meridian about to depart for London. Jumping on board it was only 10 minutes North of Leicester heading up to Melton that the tannoy announced it as one of the few non stop services to London that day!!

My son was then in tears when the guard came through, but she said don't worry you can get the next train back up to Kettering from St Pancras, it wont take long. "But i have got to go to school tomorrow" he said

Bit later on she came through and said that as they would be making a driver swap at Kettering, if we moved up the the coach she was in, she would open the door and let us both off. So at Kettering, we felt like VIPs as the train stopped for us to get off and a train crew get on. I wanted to thank the company but she said the same thing, that it was better not to
Retored my faith in human nature though and gave my son a storry to tell for years after about the day dad forgot to check the train timetable