Driver training for ice/snow

[Deepgreen]

“ When operated, it applies a light friction brake application to generate friction and therefore heat and can be used in place of additional running brake tests as required on traction types not fitted with snow brake functionality.”

Thanks - is that on the wheel tread or discs? Not sure if they have tread brakes for low speed use.

 

[choochoochoo]

“ When operated, it applies a light friction brake application to generate friction and therefore heat and can be used in place of additional running brake tests as required on traction types not fitted with snow brake functionality.”

I really need to go read the rule book again soon.

I didn’t realise traction with snow brake mode running didn’t need the snow condition additional brake tests.

I thought snow brake mode just applied mechanical brake in addition to rheostatic/regenerative braking to prevent build up of ice by generating frictional heat. Whereas without snow brake mode all the braking would be regenerative/rheostatic in most cases and there’d be opportunity for ice to build up and adversely affect mechanical braking if it was required in an emergency.

Would it not be advisable to still do the additional brake tests every 5 or so minutes even if snow brake mode is operating as ice build up can still happen in lulls between braking ?

 

[TPO]

Accumulation on brake equipment is far worse then, some traction like the 800’s don’t need to as they have a snow brake system, everything else it’s “Frequent running brake tests” which must be made at an Air braked stage, so that would be step 3 in a 387 as 1 and 2 are mostly dynamic braking. Obvious this is so heat actually generated

There are quite a few case studies where this has not been the case and brake equipment has had a serious impact,
Carstairs 2009 sticks in my head

In the sim we go over low rail adhesion which gives us what we are looking for during situations but isn’t exactly what it would be like in the real world but it’s mainly to see how you react eg if at any point you don’t think you’re going to stop for a station/signal, straight into Emergency.

Weirdly enough in the real world a light drizzle is always a lot worse than proper rain for slippery rails

Yeah, Carstairs 2009.

Brake rigging on the wagons froze in the off position (cold + accumulated snow). Journey started with a Loooong uphill climb, so no running brake test and time for brake rigging to freeze.

Prob more of a freight thing.

TPO

 

[Facing Back]

Of course if the British public were willing to fund Swiss levels of subsidy, they might get Swiss levels of service. You get what you pay for after all.

What are Swiss subsidies compared to UK ones?

 

[dk1]

The problem is that some train headlights ARE now as dazzling as cars', and, generally being less frequent are perhaps more disruptive to vision when they do come along. Some modern loco and unit lights are downright blinding, even when supposedly correctly adjusted.

Always have mine on dip during darkness and that's too bright for me.

 

[Ken H]

Back in the day ice blocking the vacuum brake could cause loss of braking at the rear of the train. I think that caused a rail accident.

The other problem I remember reading about was the ingress of water into the DC traction motors in the BedPan cl 317's The drain hole was blocked with ice and the water trapped inside the motor caused damage as it went through a freeze/thaw cycle. So trains can suffer break downs in severe weather. Sorting out a stranded train somewhere remote in foul weather will be difficult.

Semaphore signalling was prone to failures in bad weather. But the habit of leaving signals at clear was stopped after the Abbots Ripton rail accident.

But now much signalling is colour light and semaphore distants are a rarity on passenger lines.

And drivers will need to be vigilant for a signal totally obscured by snow. But there is AWS and TPWS.

And then there are trees brought down by the weight of snow and strong winds...

 

[Annetts key]

Of course there is one of the most bizarre rules in the Rule Book about normal train running being suspended when snow is more than 200mm above the running rail. Once the railhead is covered, how are you supposed to know how deep the snow is? Stop your train, get out and measure it?

Well, they want staff to measure how deep moving water is… I mean, if it’s moving, how do you tell which bit is where? Do you have to play poohsticks?

 

[Sheridan]

Well, they want staff to measure how deep moving water is… I mean, if it’s moving, how do you tell which bit is where? Do you have to play poohsticks?

I know of one location where a gauge is provided at least, with handy numbers written on it - but if it gets to the stage where traincrew are being asked to examine that, you’d better hope you’re on the right side of the bridge!

 

[Facing Back]

I know of one location where a gauge is provided at least, with handy numbers written on it - but if it gets to the stage where traincrew are being asked to examine that, you’d better hope you’re on the right side of the bridge!

I presume you are not asking a driver to do this at 125mph?

 

[Sheridan]

I presume you are not asking a driver to do this at 125mph?

Admittedly not!

 

[TurboMan]

Would it not be advisable to still do the additional brake tests every 5 or so minutes even if snow brake mode is operating as ice build up can still happen in lulls between braking ?

The snow brake remains active for up to 30 minutes, and can be activated again after this if still required, so there shouldn't be any need for additional running brake tests.

Well, now that Hitachi have ironed out all the glitches anyway.

 

[Stigy]

It is not. I can't remember the exact wording but there is also additional running brake tests required when there is "extremely cold temperatures" (or words to that effect).

Not in the rulebook there isn’t as far as I recall? It may be a requirement in some TOCs’ ARB if they have one?

 

[skyhigh]

Not in the rulebook there isn’t as far as I recall? It may be a requirement in some TOCs’ ARB if they have one?

Yes you're quite right, I was getting confused.

 

[CE142]

And as every Guard had drummed imto them, during Fog or Falling Snow, off to the Box I must go.

 

[matchmaker]

The Scottish Sectional Appendix has particular instructions for drivers of 158s in snow at three locations - Slochd, Druimuachder and Beattock. They are required not only to do running brake tests, but must also in certain circumstances bring the unit to a complete stop.

 

[Krokodil]

What are Swiss subsidies compared to UK ones?

Roughly the same in gross terms. Divide that per capita amongst the UK's large population and the comparatively small Swiss one and the spending per head is something like eight times as much in Switzerland compared to the UK.

 

[Deepgreen]

Roughly the same in gross terms. Divide that per capita amongst the UK's large population and the comparatively small Swiss one and the spending per head is something like eight times as much in Switzerland compared to the UK.

Yes, and how much of that subsidy actually goes to the railway and how much to dividends for the shareholders of consortia, etc., running the railway (as in the UK)? Probably ends up as an even greater relative imput to the railway than the UK.

 

[Facing Back]

Roughly the same in gross terms. Divide that per capita amongst the UK's large population and the comparatively small Swiss one and the spending per head is something like eight times as much in Switzerland compared to the UK.

Interesting thanks - I had no idea is was that high. I've always been impressed with the Swiss railways, mainly I guess because I enjoy the scenery, but thinking about it the service was always excellent too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

Yes, and how much of that subsidy actually goes to the railway and how much to dividends for the shareholders of consortia, etc., running the railway (as in the UK)? Probably ends up as an even greater relative imput to the railway than the UK.

Forgive me, but that's a rather tired old trope. Private companies are involved, they aim to make a profit for this risk they take. Live with it. Prior to Covid a number of them lost their deposits and gave the keys back, making a loss.

Otherwise you are hoping for nationalisation. I wish you luck in achieving that if it your goal, and wish us all luck for the effectiveness of the railways moving forwards if that happens.

 

[43066]

Forgive me, but that's a rather tired old trope. Private companies are involved, they aim to make a profit for this risk they take. Live with it. Prior to Covid a number of them lost their deposits and gave the keys back, making a loss.

Otherwise you are hoping for nationalisation. I wish you luck in achieving that if it your goal, and wish us all luck for the effectiveness of the railways moving forwards if that happens.

Brilliant, and I can’t help but agree.

Are you Michael Portillo ?

 

[bramling]

Brilliant, and I can’t help but agree.

Are you Michael Portillo ?

If only we could have Mr Portillo for PM I suspect a good proportion of this country’s problems would find themselves with, at least, some kind of credible plan for being tackled, as opposed to a government full of people who seem to be doing little more than laughing at the population. About the only thing we *can’t* blame on the current crop of awful politicians is the weather, which seems to be pretty depressing at the moment as well!

 

[Facing Back]

Brilliant, and I can’t help but agree.

Are you Michael Portillo ?

I'm pretty sure that you were one of the people who gently mocked me when I posted a while back that one of my team was knocked onto her a**e by Mr Portillo near Westminister and guilted him into coming along and speaking at a conference we were involved him - he was a gentleman and no its not me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==

If only we could have Mr Portillo for PM I suspect a good proportion of this country’s problems would find themselves with, at least, some kind of plan for being tackled, as opposed to a government full of people who seem to be doing little more than laughing at the population. About the only thing we *can’t* blame on the current crop of awful politicians is the weather, which seems to be pretty depressing at the moment as well!

As a default Tory I should find some way to argue against most of the that. Sadly I can't.

 

[43066]

If only we could have Mr Portillo for PM I suspect a good proportion of this country’s problems would find themselves with, at least, some kind of credible plan for being tackled, as opposed to a government full of people who seem to be doing little more than laughing at the population. About the only thing we *can’t* blame on the current crop of awful politicians is the weather, which seems to be pretty depressing at the moment as well!

Agreed, he’s the PM we never had.

I'm pretty sure that you were one of the people who gently mocked me when I posted a while back that one of my team was knocked onto her a**e by Mr Portillo near Westminister and guilted him into coming along and speaking at a conference we were involved him - he was a gentleman and no its not me.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2023 ==


As a default Tory I should find some way to argue against most of the that. Sadly I can't.

That does ring a bell, actually. I need to stop agreeing with you on every single thread you contribute to, incase it becomes a tad creepy.

But, agreed!!!

 

[Facing Back]

That does ring a bell, actually. I need to stop agreeing with you on every single thread you contribute to, incase it becomes a tad creepy.

You were trained by a large accountancy firm. You clearly didn't notice when they got you drunk and implanted the chip... You can't resist for ever....

 

[Meerkat]

Roughly the same in gross terms. Divide that per capita amongst the UK's large population and the comparatively small Swiss one and the spending per head is something like eight times as much in Switzerland compared to the UK.

Is that net of the lorry taxes etc that help pay for the cross Switzerland lorry trains and the massive infrastructure for them?