Driver training for ice/snow

[trainophile]

How do they replicate the current sort of conditions for driver training?

 

[skyhigh]

Simple answer is they don't.

Driving in snow really isn't much different. There are some specific instructions (which depend on your company/traction) but otherwise you pretty much crack on as normal.

 

[lammergeier]

They don't, unless the company has simulators available and in my view simulators don't really help training for such scenarios. You just learn (and are examined on) what the extra rules/company instructions are which is generally sufficient.

 

[12LDA28C]

How do they replicate the current sort of conditions for driver training?

Why would they need to? There are clear instructions in the Rule Book about additional driver actions in snowy conditions which should be sufficient.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks, fair enough.

 

[ZFE95]

Simulation kits are usually handy, although there's no real way of replicating it until you're greeted with it for real.

Make sure your hours with your DI isn't during the summer I guess!

 

[43066]

Make sure your hours with your DI isn't during the summer I guess!

Also because it’s nigh on impossible to get dark driving hours then, too!

 

[dk1]

As said snowfall has little effect on driving except for additional running brake tests if there is significant fresh laying snow being blown about. It is replicated quite well in training simulators but not much difference to fog except for being a little more mesmerising.

 

[choochoochoo]

Why is the extra brake test only needed when there is falling/disturbed snow ?

Is ice accumulation on brakes not possible in sub zero temperatures with freezing rain/fog ?

 

[skyhigh]

Why is the extra brake test only needed when there is falling/disturbed snow ?

It is not. I can't remember the exact wording but there is also additional running brake tests required when there is "extremely cold temperatures" (or words to that effect).

 

[dk1]

Why is the extra brake test only needed when there is falling/disturbed snow ?

Is ice accumulation on brakes not possible in sub zero temperatures with freezing rain/fog ?

All to do with snow/ice build up. Something like every 5 minutes. We get so little snow I always forget.

 

[12LDA28C]

Why is the extra brake test only needed when there is falling/disturbed snow ?

Is ice accumulation on brakes not possible in sub zero temperatures with freezing rain/fog ?

Pretty tricky for fog to lay on the ground and get whipped up by the passage of trains, so accumulating around the brake gear I would have thought.

 

[800301]

Why is the extra brake test only needed when there is falling/disturbed snow ?

Is ice accumulation on brakes not possible in sub zero temperatures with freezing rain/fog ?

Accumulation on brake equipment is far worse then, some traction like the 800’s don’t need to as they have a snow brake system, everything else it’s “Frequent running brake tests” which must be made at an Air braked stage, so that would be step 3 in a 387 as 1 and 2 are mostly dynamic braking. Obvious this is so heat actually generated

There are quite a few case studies where this has not been the case and brake equipment has had a serious impact,
Carstairs 2009 sticks in my head

In the sim we go over low rail adhesion which gives us what we are looking for during situations but isn’t exactly what it would be like in the real world but it’s mainly to see how you react eg if at any point you don’t think you’re going to stop for a station/signal, straight into Emergency.

Weirdly enough in the real world a light drizzle is always a lot worse than proper rain for slippery rails

 

[Sly Sloth]

No offence but this is like the “Swiss trains run on time in 6 foot of snow” that always crops up…… we get snow like this maybe once or twice a year so don’t need contingencies per say! Just a bit of common sense from the public and follow the rule book for drifting snow usually suffices

 

[dk1]

No offence but this is like the “Swiss trains run on time in 6 foot of snow” that always crops up…… we get snow like this maybe once or twice a year so don’t need contingencies per say! Just a bit of common sense from the public and follow the rule book for drifting snow usually suffices

Absolutely crazes me when you get that from the British public & media. Guaranteed to get my best roll of the eyes & a tut.

 

[12LDA28C]

Of course there is one of the most bizarre rules in the Rule Book about normal train running being suspended when snow is more than 200mm above the running rail. Once the railhead is covered, how are you supposed to know how deep the snow is? Stop your train, get out and measure it?

 

[gabrielhj07]

“Frequent running brake tests” which must be made at an Air braked stage, so that would be step 3 in a 387 as 1 and 2 are mostly dynamic braking. Obvious this is so heat actually generated

Is dynamic braking left activated in snow conditions?

 

[philosopher]

Given that even a very thin layer of snow or ice can prevent or make it difficult to pick up an current from third rails, do drivers of third rail traction trains need any training to deal with snow or ice on third rails? I assume snow and ice is more a challenge to drivers of third rail trains than of diesel or overhead line powered trains.

 

[choochoochoo]

It is not. I can't remember the exact wording but there is also additional running brake tests required when there is "extremely cold temperatures" (or words to that effect).

I’ll need to go read the rule book again. Thought it was for falling or disturbed snow only that required snow brake test. If it says extremely cold temperatures then that covers it.

Pretty tricky for fog to lay on the ground and get whipped up by the passage of trains, so accumulating around the brake gear I would have thought.

Ice accretion isn’t just from precipitation being whipped up. Look at how ice accumulates on an aircraft. It only needs moisture to be present in the atmosphere at cold temperatures or on cold surfaces. (Pilot friends tell me they switch on their anti ice measures when there is precipitation and the outside air temperature is below 20 deg. c , but then their frameworks are super cold soaked )

 

[king_walnut]

Given that even a very thin layer of snow or ice can prevent or make it difficult to pick up an current from third rails, do drivers of third rail traction trains need any training to deal with snow or ice on third rails? I assume snow and ice is more a challenge to drivers of third rail trains than of diesel or overhead line powered trains.

The only thing (for 377 and 387 stock anyway) is activating ice mode. This does something to the way the train pulls power so the surges caused by icy rails don't damage the train. In terms of driving them, nothing is different.

When very icy conditions are forecast, they might get the night cover person to run a ghost train around just to disrupt the ice forming on the rails, then when service starts the frequency of the trains is enough to keep the line useable.

With that being said though, there was one time I recall where a train got stranded between Lewes and Falmer because it couldn't pick up any juice, so they sent a rescue train to it which (of course) also got stranded for the same reason. They simply had to wait for the sun to rise and the ice to melt before proceeding.

Such conditions really seem to be a thing of the past now in the South East sadly.

 

[TreacleMiller]

Simple. Drive In the conditions, sim on what can't be done.

Rulebook is clear and knowledge is required for the rules exams.

How do they replicate the current sort of conditions for driver training?

 

[Efini92]

Is dynamic braking left activated in snow conditions?

Depends on the traction and the type of dynamic brake.
On a 390 the instruction is to isolate the regen so that the rheostatic does all the dynamic braking. It stops snow build up on the resistors.

 

[Krokodil]

Absolutely crazes me when you get that from the British public & media. Guaranteed to get my best roll of the eyes & a tut.

Of course if the British public were willing to fund Swiss levels of subsidy, they might get Swiss levels of service. You get what you pay for after all.

 

[Meerkat]

Is driving a train in falling snow as mesmerising as in a car?
Lights up, foot down, we're going into hyperspace! (I'm getting to an age where I'm starting to think I may never grow up)

Presumably it makes despatch 'interesting'. How good are the DOO cameras in falling snow?
Not much fun for a guard either I imagine - I remember stepping out of train and nearly falling over, not realising the snow was about five inches deep!

 

[dk1]

Is driving a train in falling snow as mesmerising as in a car?
Lights up, foot down, we're going into hyperspace! (I'm getting to an age where I'm starting to think I may never grow up)

Presumably it makes despatch 'interesting'. How good are the DOO cameras in falling snow?
Not much fun for a guard either I imagine - I remember stepping out of train and nearly falling over, not realising the snow was about five inches deep!

The onboard DOO cameras can get caked in snow so would need to go into degraded mode for dispatch in that case. Luckily all the trains I drive even though driver controls the doors must have a guard. I expect at other locations platform staff dispatch using CD/RA.

Headlights are not as bright as using a car as are more provided for others to see us rather than for us see where we are going but still a little mesmerising.

 

[Taunton]

History tells us that winter hazards are not particularly connected with driving style, but more incidental aspects, such as signal failures, or trains being stranded. I suppose the Eurostar strandings in the snow (and inside the Channel Tunnel as it melted) of some years ago are a recent example.

 

[Deepgreen]

How do they replicate the current sort of conditions for driver training?

Leaving aside the performance of ancillary infrastructure such as points, one of the great things about railways (from a driving perspective) is that they are hugely less affected by snow than roads, as the wheel/rail interface is pretty much the same in all weather. The main issue with driving a train in falling snow is obviously visibility, which, with modern signalling, is not an issue except in very extreme conditions. There will perhaps be a slight reduction in adhesion with wet rails, but usually nowhere near as much as with, say, leaf mulch or drizzle after a long dry spell.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2023 ==

Is driving a train in falling snow as mesmerising as in a car?
Lights up, foot down, we're going into hyperspace! (I'm getting to an age where I'm starting to think I may never grow up)

Presumably it makes despatch 'interesting'. How good are the DOO cameras in falling snow?
Not much fun for a guard either I imagine - I remember stepping out of train and nearly falling over, not realising the snow was about five inches deep!

If that's your car driving regime for snow, I fear it/you may be short-lived!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2023 ==

The onboard DOO cameras can get caked in snow so would need to go into degraded mode for dispatch in that case. Luckily all the trains I drive even though driver controls the doors must have a guard. I expect at other locations platform staff dispatch using CD/RA.

Headlights are not as bright as using a car as are more provided for others to see us rather than for us see where we are going but still a little mesmerising.

The problem is that some train headlights ARE now as dazzling as cars', and, generally being less frequent are perhaps more disruptive to vision when they do come along. Some modern loco and unit lights are downright blinding, even when supposedly correctly adjusted.



This is how it's done!:

 

[bramling]

Of course if the British public were willing to fund Swiss levels of subsidy, they might get Swiss levels of service. You get what you pay for after all.

Things are getting to the point now where it’s not so much a case of whether the British public are willing to fund, but whether the country could afford it even if we wanted it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2023 ==

Leaving aside the performance of ancillary infrastructure such as points, one of the great things about railways (from a driving perspective) is that they are hugely less affected by snow than roads, as the wheel/rail interface is pretty much the same in all weather. The main issue with driving a train in falling snow is obviously visibility, which, with modern signalling, is not an issue except in very extreme conditions. There will perhaps be a slight reduction in adhesion with wet rails, but usually nowhere near as much as with, say, leaf mulch or drizzle after a long dry spell.

The other aspect of ice/snow which hasn’t been touched upon is that these conditions, especially when snow is falling heavily, tend to cause a significantly higher than normal number of defects to occur on trains, either simply due to the cold, or because of essentially water finding its way into equipment. So anything on the train which was already at the point of being ready to give trouble will do so.

In practice this means drivers and other staff will need to be at the top end of their game when it comes to dealing with faults. Certainly in my experience snow can quite quickly catch out those who aren’t. There will also be less assistance from control simply due to workload.

 

[Deepgreen]

No offence but this is like the “Swiss trains run on time in 6 foot of snow” that always crops up…… we get snow like this maybe once or twice a year so don’t need contingencies per say! Just a bit of common sense from the public and follow the rule book for drifting snow usually suffices

They do, too!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2023 ==

Accumulation on brake equipment is far worse then, some traction like the 800’s don’t need to as they have a snow brake system, everything else it’s “Frequent running brake tests” which must be made at an Air braked stage, so that would be step 3 in a 387 as 1 and 2 are mostly dynamic braking. Obvious this is so heat actually generated

There are quite a few case studies where this has not been the case and brake equipment has had a serious impact,
Carstairs 2009 sticks in my head

In the sim we go over low rail adhesion which gives us what we are looking for during situations but isn’t exactly what it would be like in the real world but it’s mainly to see how you react eg if at any point you don’t think you’re going to stop for a station/signal, straight into Emergency.

Weirdly enough in the real world a light drizzle is always a lot worse than proper rain for slippery rails

What does the 800s' snow brake consist of? Yes, drizzle/light rain is worse because it doesn't wash the railhead but sits alongside dust, pollen and other mush-forming debris.

 

[800301]

They do, too!View attachment 130677

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Mar 2023 ==


What does the 800s' snow brake consist of? Yes, drizzle/light rain is worse because it doesn't wash the railhead but sits alongside dust, pollen and other mush-forming debris.

“ When operated, it applies a light friction brake application to generate friction and therefore heat and can be used in place of additional running brake tests as required on traction types not fitted with snow brake functionality.”