Driver refusing request to call at additional stations - is this really a thing?

[Stadtbahn]

Something strange happened to me a couple of weeks ago at Elstree and Borehamwood. I arrived at the station (without looking at timetables/live departures before I got there) to catch a Thameslink train to West Hampstead. It seemed that the previous Sutton train got cancelled, as well as the next Sutton train. However, there was a Brighton train displayed on the departure boards which was arriving two minutes later (I assumed that this was a train making additional stops due to other trains being cancelled - Brighton trains don't usually call at E&B). However, two minutes later a suspiciously fast Brighton train approached the platform and - sure enough - passed straight through the station. At the same time, the train disappeared from the departure boards.

I went and spoke to station staff (they seemed just as confused as everyone else on the platform) who made some calls to find out what had happened. They then told us that the driver of the Brighton train had been asked to make additional stops (can't remember what term was used - possibly 'call order'?) but that he refused the request and decided to skip these stops. Because of this, I had to wait for over 1.5 hours for the next train.

Now - this seems really strange to me. Do drivers really have the right to refuse additional stops? If so, is this common?

 

[SargeNpton]

Perhaps the special stop order was not officially conveyed to the driver due to a breakdown in communications, rather than the driver refusing to stop.

 

[MotCO]

During disruption at Charing Cross many years ago, I asked if a train could make an aditional stop at my station. I was told that they can't ask the driver to do this, and was left with the impression that it was solely the driver's decision.

 

[dk1]

Many drivers will refuse to stop if not issued with a ‘special stop order/Not to call’ slip which would be passed to him/her at the previous calling point. Personally if the guard or signaller requests me to stop with permission from control, then I will.

 

[357]

Personally I'm tired of getting verbal instructions that then turn out to be incorrect and getting flack for it.

I don't change my calling pattern unless given to me in writing or via a recorded line (GSMR)

 

[Need2]

During disruption at Charing Cross many years ago, I asked if a train could make an aditional stop at my station. I was told that they can't ask the driver to do this, and was left with the impression that it was solely the driver's decision.

Utterly wrong!
The driver cannot decide to stop or not stop anywhere.
Any request for a service to stop ‘additionally’ or not to call MUST come from the tocs control and usually will be conveyed to the driver either by gsmr or (as has been said earlier) by the driver being given a signed paper request at a previous station.

 

[Stadtbahn]

Many drivers will refuse to stop if not issued with a ‘special stop order/Not to call’ slip which would be passed to him/her at the previous calling point. Personally if the guard or signaller requests me to stop with permission from control, then I will.

Of course I don't know whether the driver had received this but does the fact that the train was shown on the departure boards give any indication of this?

 

[43066]

Many drivers will refuse to stop if not issued with a ‘special stop order/Not to call’ slip which would be passed to him/her at the previous calling point. Personally if the guard or signaller requests me to stop with permission from control, then I will.

GSMR or paper not to call order only for me. NTCs need to be checked *carefully* as I’ve previously been given one only to discover it was made out for a different train on inspection.

I’ve also had the opposite scenario with the guard asking me to call additionally to drop off some passengers who had boarded the wrong train! I agreed but again called the signaller to confirm what I was doing. I’d always rather stop in that scenario but, had there not been time to speak to the signaller, I wouldn’t have stopped as there’s just too much risk of getting blamed for “stopping out of course”.

Of course I don't know whether the driver had received this but does the fact that the train was shown on the departure boards give any indication of this?

Not really. Most likely the information simply wasn’t passed to the driver in your scenario.

 

[20atthemagnet]

Of course I don't know whether the driver had received this but does the fact that the train was shown on the departure boards give any indication of this?

No. Countless times I’ve been told not to stop somewhere and I whizz through the platform indicators showing as if I’m still stopping, countless times you make an additional stop and nobody at the station even knows the train exists.

As above bottom line is if it’s not via GSMR or via a stop order from an authorised person I’m not stopping anywhere or skipping anywhere. That also includes platform boards.. they are for passengers and we are told to ignore them. The slip has to be signed by the authorising person as well. When a driver misses a station or stops additionally whether accidentally or without the correct permissions it’s considered an operational incident which is no small thing.

On my lines I’ve had this on numerous occasions more recently where I’ve had revenue/agency platform staff telling me that I’m stopping or not stopping somewhere. Sorry but I don’t think so. That is of course if that was the scenario. It may not have been but its one possibility. The correct procedures have been becoming increasingly lax in the last couple of years, possibly in part because newer drivers are afraid to challenge incorrect information.

 

[dk1]

Of course I don't know whether the driver had received this but does the fact that the train was shown on the departure boards give any indication of this?

Sounds like possible mis-communication issues.

 

[357]

Often station staff don't even have the paperwork to give you. Can't give me a stop order on a scrap paper, and if the company don't supply the forms it's not their fault.

Generally everyone is ok about it, as everyone does know the correct procedure.

As an addition to above, I can think of one reason the driver could have refused the stop order (not knowing the details or geography of the location concerned). If it would take the driver past their signing off time, then the driver would be within their rights to say no. Also, if it would have put the driver over the maximum hours for that day/maximum hours without a break.

 

[dk1]

GSMR or paper not to call order only for me. NTCs need to be checked *carefully* as I’ve previously been given one only to discover it was made out for a different train on inspection.

I’ve also had the opposite scenario with the guard asking me to call additionally to drop off some passengers who had boarded the wrong train! I agreed but again called the signaller to confirm what I was doing. I’d always rather stop in that scenario but, had there not been time to speak to the signaller, I wouldn’t have stopped as there’s just too much risk of getting blamed for “stopping out of course”.

Yes we’ve recently had some onboard PIS problems where my guard has just rung to say it’s fine to stop at Chelmsford & let them off if I was happy to do so. Must admit I didn’t ring the signaller as it’s not an issue there & with the Stadlers now it’s all so quick. Was away a couple of minutes before I was even due to pass through. Yes I’ve often had wrong info on the paperwork lol.

 

[Bald Rick]

the issuing of Special stop orders (SSO) of Not to Call (NTC) at St Albans for stations south thereof happens quite often.

the process is that control decide, communicate this to St Albans station control (on Platform1), the order is written, and one of the platform staff then physically conveys the paperwork to the Driver of the train concerned.

usually the Information screens are updated before the driver receives the paperwork, so that passengers at St Albans know what’s happening.

however, for those that know St Albans station, it is quite a trek from station control to the drivers end of the up fast platform (3), especially if the footbridge is busy. I have seen on more than one occasion the paperwork not reach the driver before departure, and on several other occasions the member of staff sprinting up the front to get there just in time.

it is one of (my) life pleasures to pitch up at St Albans heading to London, finding the service in tatters, spying an up stopper coming out of the siding 10-15 minutes late with another right behind it, and correctly anticipating it is converted to non-stop.

 

[Andy R. A.]

Going back many, many years now, there used to be a contingency plan book that would list trains to be issued with Stop Orders to cover a train/trains that were cancelled. There was a period when some Drivers refused Stop Orders as it would 'put them on overtime'. On one occasion I had a Stop Order torn up by a Driver who threw it back at me. (And I had asked him nicely). It used to get logged but as far as I know nothing ever got done about it. The joke at the time was that perhaps Stop Orders were relabelled as 'Stop Requests'.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I've had a driver refuse to change from an express service to a stopper as he wasn't willing to over his day. Also had many a driver say they won't do it without both members of train crew having a SSO/NTC slip, which is also quite right.

Very rarely is I not communicated correctly, in my experience it does happen though.

 

[43066]

I can think of one reason the driver could have refused the stop order (not knowing the details or geography of the location concerned). If it would take the driver past their signing off time, then the driver would be within their rights to say no. Also, if it would have put the driver over the maximum hours for that day/maximum hours without a break.

I’ve also known of drivers refusing where severe overcrowding (to the point where safety was compromised) was likely to be an issue.

 

[TheEdge]

Personally I'm tired of getting verbal instructions that then turn out to be incorrect and getting flack for it.

I don't change my calling pattern unless given to me in writing or via a recorded line (GSMR)

My conductor requested a SSO once when someone had been incorrectly put back on a train by a member of station staff after listening to the announcements and correctly getting off. That was done by my conductor calling control (recorded) and then myself phoning the signaler (again, recorded) to say we'd got an SSO from control and would be overtime in a pretty short section I should have been passing at 60.

We'd requested it rather than been given it but I had made sure there were several recordings of it being done properly.

 

[NEDdrv]

Had a not to stop order for a station where there was reported wind damage to the station roof only to be signalled into the station platform under flashing yellows, with the platform signal clearing on entering platform and passengers on platform, I didn’t stop as last instruction was not to, if this had been changed in the 15 mins since getting NTSO then should have been stopped and told.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As an Operations Manager I always carried a pad of special stop orders with me. Never known a driver to refuse one. (even if the train they wore working was well late and was being converted to a semi-fast)

 

[choochoochoo]

Once argued with control about a not to call order. If I didn’t stop then the next train for passengers was over an hour and a half later because other services had also been cancelled. I thought that was not in the best interests of passengers seeing it was a freezing cold winters day.

In the time we’d spent arguing about it I could’ve have easily stopped at all the booked stations !!

 

[43066]

Once argued with control about a not to call order. If I didn’t stop then the next train for passengers was over an hour and a half later because other services had also been cancelled. I thought that was not in the best interests of passengers seeing it was a freezing cold winters day.

In the time we’d spent arguing about it I could’ve have easily stopped at all the booked stations !!

So, did you stop?

 

[choochoochoo]

So, did you stop?

No because control refused the stops. So it would’ve been stopping out of course.

 

[43066]

No because control refused the stops. So it would’ve been stopping out of course.

The right decision in the circumstances.

The other way around (ie people who want to get off but are on the wrong train) you could argue the safety aspect and inform control you were stopping anyway, because otherwise they might pull an egress.

Not so easy to make that case in your situation.

 

[choochoochoo]

The right decision in the circumstances.

The other way around (ie people who want to get off but are on the wrong train) you could argue the safety aspect and inform control you were stopping anyway, because otherwise they might pull an egress.

Not so easy to make that case in your situation.

Just ludicrous that in the time spent arguing we could’ve made the stops, and have incurred the same delay.

I understand there are other services and pathing requirements that my delayed train could’ve been affecting. However on that part of the line the only trains I’d have affected were already behind me. And nothing else could join the line before I’d reach my destination.

Anyway just another day on the railway.

 

[Urban Gateline]

When I used to give these not to call or special stop orders out as they were called, to be fair most of the train crew took them and agreed to do as asked, we gave one copy to the Guard and one to the Driver, which meant having 2 platform staff present to do that when the train came in or at Euston we would collar the crew out on the platform!

There's always going to be some that refuse to take the stop orders unfortunately, and as Platform staff it left us vulnerable to the wrath of angry passengers when a driver refused to take the stop order, but then as others have mentioned, there are legitimate reasons for refusing them, it may seem poor in terms of customer service, but that's the Railway for you

 

[43066]

Anyway just another day on the railway.

As we all know, there’s the right-way.

Then there’s the rail-way.

 

[357]

When I used to give these not to call or special stop orders out as they were called, to be fair most of the train crew took them and agreed to do as asked, we gave one copy to the Guard and one to the Driver, which meant having 2 platform staff present to do that when the train came in or at Euston we would collar the crew out on the platform!

There's always going to be some that refuse to take the stop orders unfortunately, and as Platform staff it left us vulnerable to the wrath of angry passengers when a driver refused to take the stop order, but then as others have mentioned, there are legitimate reasons for refusing them, it may seem poor in terms of customer service, but that's the Railway for you

There are some drivers who flat out refuse additional calls on their last trip, or demand stops removed from the schedule prior to departure from a terminus on their last trip if starting late.

I had a case recently with my control, I was going to the cinema and needed to finish on time, I agreed to take the train to London, starting late from the terminus, on the agreement they would get a stop order to me to ensure I finish on time, or have me relieved by another driver on the way.

They never did organise anything, and I lost the cinema tickets as a result.

In future I'll simply use my right not to begin a trip that will push me into overtime. The favours seem to always be going in one direction.

I can't help but thinking the "goodwill" is disappearing from most grades for a multitude of reasons.

There has always been, and always will be times of friction between grades, however I hope that in most cases front line staff can stick together with solidarity. If a stop order is refused it really is most likely for a very good reason.

 

[gaillark]

Thank you to all above who have contributed. It gives a very good overview.
I was the sole beneficiary of a SSO back in 1992 when I missed by train due to disruption and the next train with a connection at Grantham for Boston would make me miss a very big important meeting at Boston Borough Council.

As a passenger I knew about SSO so I asked at the duty managers office at King's Cross if they could arrange for a SSO at Grantham which the duly obliged and was so grateful for. I do recall clearly the platform supervisor collect me from the AMO and walk me to the train before ordinary passengers were allowed to board and introduced me to the guard. The supervisor clearly handed to the guard a signed slip of paper and the guard welcomed me on board with the guard asking if the driver was aware - I know the supervisor walked down the platform presumably to hand the driver the slip of paper. It did feel very special being the only person to alight at Grantham.

Can I please just be permiited to ask a question that is not ralated to SSO/NTC as there as so many drivers on this thread.
What happens to your driving hours when there is severe disruption such as a fatality or overhead line damage etc (and disruption is beyound 2+ hours and getting back to base will cause you to be over time? I've been on a train back to Kings Cross from Berwick-upon-Tweed once when the train didn't arrive until after 0430 when it should have been in by 2330. 5 hours late.

 

[43066]

What happens to your driving hours when there is severe disruption such as a fatality or overhead line damage etc (and disruption is beyound 2+ hours and getting back to base will cause you to be over time? I've been on a train back to Kings Cross from Berwick-upon-Tweed once when the train didn't arrive until after 0430 when it should have been in by 2330. 5 hours late.

You basically have to carry on until you can bring your train home. Including if someone is threatening to kill themselves for hours and sitting above a bridge/tunnel etc. (you pray you’ve started/finished before those shifts). I know a driver who had an 18 hour shift because of that scenario!

The grim reality is that a jumper is cleaned up and dealt with far quicker than someone who spends hours deciding whether or not to do the deed…

 

[Ashley Hill]

Where a Guard is provided then the paperwork goes to both Guard and driver. In an emergency a call to both on a recorded line will suffice. If one but not the other receives these instructions then the request is queried with control.