• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Driver phone policies

Status
Not open for further replies.

ac6000cw

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2014
Messages
3,909
Location
Cambridge, UK
This incident might be a reason why they're strict about it while at stations - despite the incident in question, not being directly caused by phone use. (from 2015)
https://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/tocs-issued-warning-over-driver-mobile-phone-use-
Add in the incident at Bromsgrove in 2020 as well.

I attended a training event (I'm not a mainline train driver btw) a few years ago where a RAIB made a presentation and talked about analysing phone usage in cabs. They stated they'll analyse data sent/received from the phone via the phone company to judge whether the phone was being used in the cab - no need to unlock devices.
There was a serious fatal head-on collision in 2008 at Chatsworth, California (25 people killed) where mobile phone use by the driver of a passenger train was heavily implicated (the driver was killed in the collision, after passing a red signal protecting a single-line section) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chatsworth_train_collision
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

AverageJoe

On Moderation
Joined
23 Dec 2021
Messages
671
Location
United Kingdom
I can understand strict policy’s with regards phones. I mean people are addicted to these things now. Almost every mess room heads in phone, people walking down the street heads in phone, turn to look at the person who pulled up next to you at traffic light, head in phone… even though in this case it could mean loss of drivers license.

So it seems a lot of people are able to resist the temptation to use them.

My toc allows phones on in cab up until 5 minutes before departure time.
If I have some time at platform mid journey I’ll step on to the platform to look at my phone.
If I’m running empty stock and get stopped at a red and from experience I know I’ll be there a while I’ll lock the central door open and sit in the saloon where I can see the signal still and use my phone.

I’d never risk braking the rules as regards phone policy though as it’s really not worth losing your job.
 

380101

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2015
Messages
1,141
Obviously they all differ slightly so I don't speak for one in particular, but if stood at a red signal there wouldn't be an issue with a driver using their phone, indeed if control need to get in touch with a driver they may well send a text and ask the driver to call them when safe

Unless there was a failure of GSM-R, control would not need to contact a driver via their mobile phone as they would just use the GSM-R.

Worth noting the driver that had the serious buffer collision on Mersey Rail a couple of years ago had used his mobile phone in the cab less than 2 minutes before the incident.

Aslef also fully support the policy of no mobile phones being used in cabs. A quick scroll, txt or phone call is not worth losing a £60k+ a year job for.
 

bengley

Established Member
Joined
18 May 2008
Messages
1,987
Unless there was a failure of GSM-R, control would not need to contact a driver via their mobile phone as they would just use the GSM-R.

Worth noting the driver that had the serious buffer collision on Mersey Rail a couple of years ago had used his mobile phone in the cab less than 2 minutes before the incident.

Aslef also fully support the policy of no mobile phones being used in cabs. A quick scroll, txt or phone call is not worth losing a £60k+ a year job for.

I have never worked for any operator which does, or even can, use a GSM-R terminal to contact me. Some don't even have a terminal they can use.
 

380101

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2015
Messages
1,141
I have never worked for any operator which does, or even can, use a GSM-R terminal to contact me. Some don't even have a terminal they can use.

Been like that in ScotRail for over 5 years now, at least. Wee text message to the GSM-R "contact ScotRail control", hit the tick and it auto dials them. Prior to that the signaller would contact us and ask you to contact control via the GSM-R.
 

PLY2AYS

Member
Joined
26 Mar 2024
Messages
518
Location
Montserrat
Aslef also fully support the policy of no mobile phones being used in cabs. A quick scroll, txt or phone call is not worth losing a £60k+ a year job for.
Absolutely agree.
Been like that in ScotRail for over 5 years now, at least. Wee text message to the GSM-R "contact ScotRail control", hit the tick and it auto dials them. Prior to that the signaller would contact us and ask you to contact control via the GSM-R.
Should be the industry wide standard in my opinion!
I have never worked for any operator which does, or even can, use a GSM-R terminal to contact me. Some don't even have a terminal they can use.
I’m extremely curious to know what companies/regions/signallers don’t have GSM-R in the UK?
 

357

Established Member
Joined
12 Nov 2018
Messages
2,282
I’m extremely curious to know what companies/regions/signallers don’t have GSM-R in the UK?
Lots of TOC controls don't have GSMR available to them, and contact needs to go via the signaller.
 

RiverDon

On Moderation
Joined
11 Mar 2024
Messages
297
Location
UK
Some TOCs forbid use of an electronic device/phone up to 10 minutes before driving a train.
The company I work for doesn't go quite that far but they want you to turn your phone off and put it in your bag before you leave the piece room so in practice with walking time and mobilisation time that's pretty much a 10 minute period beforehand anyway. If you are standing on a platform just waiting to take over a train somewhere that the public could see you, management don't want you to be using your phone there either. That isn't actually written into the policy but I have heard drivers have been pulled up for it. Our ASLEF reps make it clear they won't defend any member who breaches the electronic devices policy too.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
113,153
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The company I work for doesn't go quite that far but they want you to turn your phone off and put it in your bag before you leave the piece room so in practice with walking time and mobilisation time that's pretty much a 10 minute period beforehand anyway. If you are standing on a platform just waiting to take over a train somewhere that the public could see you, management don't want you to be using your phone there either. That isn't actually written into the policy but I have heard drivers have been pulled up for it. Our ASLEF reps make it clear they won't defend any member who breaches the electronic devices policy too.

That's the optics bit, I think. It isn't a safety issue for a driver waiting for the train they're taking over to sit scrolling TikTok on the platform (provided the sound is off - it's VERY bad optics for them to be sitting there breaching Byelaw 7 (1) (2)), but the optics are terrible - members of staff in uniform in any context, particularly safety critical contexts, with their head in their personal mobile phone just look bad for the company.
 

driverd

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2021
Messages
904
Location
UK
Unless there was a failure of GSM-R, control would not need to contact a driver via their mobile phone as they would just use the GSM-R.

Having worked for 3 TOCs and a FOC so far in my career, I can't think of a single occasion where control have been able to put a call into a train - they don't have the ability to do so as they're not on the same network.

Worth noting the driver that had the serious buffer collision on Mersey Rail a couple of years ago had used his mobile phone in the cab less than 2 minutes before the incident.

Whixh was a flagrant violation of that operators policy and the phone policy did nothing to prevent the incident.

A minority of people will abuse any policy but just because there are people who can't follow company rules doesnt mean you should make the policy so strict that 99% of drivers who do comply are disadvantaged.

Aslef also fully support the policy of no mobile phones being used in cabs. A quick scroll, txt or phone call is not worth losing a £60k+ a year job for.

Correct!
 

Class2ldn

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2011
Messages
1,400
Having worked for 3 TOCs and a FOC so far in my career, I can't think of a single occasion where control have been able to put a call into a train - they don't have the ability to do so as they're not on the same network.
We used to get called by control all the time at my previous TOC, it was flagged by the union as a distraction and were told they were not going to be answered however we were allowed to ring them if it was safe, similar to the signaller.
 

Surreytraveller

On Moderation
Joined
21 Oct 2009
Messages
3,905
With the advent of 'GBR' will things like this be brought into line so that a common policy applies across the whole railway?
Look at GTR. Has been combined for years. Separate brands all with different T&Cs, agreements, policies etc between brands. Even Gatwick Express and Southern have different agreements and T&Cs, even though they drive each others trains (I'm just just talking about mobile phone policies).
I imagine it's the same in other TOCs that have been combined
 

MadMac

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2008
Messages
1,494
Location
Moorpark, CA
There was a serious fatal head-on collision in 2008 at Chatsworth, California (25 people killed) where mobile phone use by the driver of a passenger train was heavily implicated (the driver was killed in the collision, after passing a red signal protecting a single-line section) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chatsworth_train_collision
In the wake of Chatsworth, LA Metro’s Corporate Safety lost their marbles (it’s questionable if they had any in the first place, but I digress) and hurriedly drafted a policy on use of electronic devices which was circulated for discussion: I pointed out that as written, it prevented the use of a laptop to diagnose or download information from lineside signalling equipment.
 

Surreytraveller

On Moderation
Joined
21 Oct 2009
Messages
3,905
Some TOCs forbid use of an electronic device/phone up to 10 minutes before driving a train.
In that case, breaks and booking on, changing ends or any other activity which doesn't involve driving needs a ten minute allowance added to it in case you've had to speak to someone

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Distracting a driver before moving a train apparently.
Presumably a lot of stressful phone conversations/exchanges are had by our drivers before or during work! :lol:
But also, if a stressful phone call has distracted a driver before they start driving, there could equally be a situation which is distracting them if they don't know what's going on because they're not allowed to put their mind at ease (although you could argue in that circumstance they might not be fit to drive anyway)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

380101

Member
Joined
18 Feb 2015
Messages
1,141
Having worked for 3 TOCs and a FOC so far in my career, I can't think of a single occasion where control have been able to put a call into a train - they don't have the ability to do so as they're not on the same network.

ScotRail control have been able to contact drivers via the GSM-R for well over 5 years now.

In the Strathclyde area they can also utilise a text to speech system that can broadcast messages into the passenger saloons via GSM-R to provide realtime information when required to passengers.
 

styles

Established Member
Joined
7 Dec 2014
Messages
4,745
Location
Gwynedd
What a strange policy! What are the grounds for that?
I'm sure I read a study about mobile phone usage in cars which showed that the distraction effect of using a mobile phone while driving, even just looking at the screen, continues a short while after you stop using it. I'd struggle to find it now so take that with a pinch of salt.
 

Tester

Established Member
Joined
5 Jul 2020
Messages
1,669
Location
Watford
I'm guessing this is with company phones otherwise it sounds a bit like my mum insisting she has invisible eyes in the back of her head. It would be very illegal for them to be snooping on your personal phone records
They do - didn't you know?!
 

driverd

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2021
Messages
904
Location
UK
I'm sure I read a study about mobile phone usage in cars which showed that the distraction effect of using a mobile phone while driving, even just looking at the screen, continues a short while after you stop using it. I'd struggle to find it now so take that with a pinch of salt.

The important point here is that not everyone deals with distraction the same, though. For some people, they have a higher ability for multitasking and remaining safe than others - thus how some drivers can be all over the place just looking at a phone, whilst plenty others use them day in, day out, without incident.

I'm not here to challenge the laws etc, just to point out that just because a study says it creates a distraction, it does not follow that you are, therefore, unsafe.

Bringing it back to trains, there are a whole plethora of other cab based distractions that could be pointed to, that create a similar or higher level of distraction. The key takeaway is that managing your workload (which is a fundamental part of much driver training) is very much a part of your duty. Whatever the mobile phone policy, whatever the distraction, as a well paid professional its our jobs to keep things safe and exercise professional judgement - some policies at some operators really water down the level of professional judgement, at others it leaves a lot more room for it.

The problem with overly strict policies tends to boil down to the implications this has on the passengers. Take, for example, the above 10 minute policy. If a driver needs to phone maintenance control to resolve a fault, does he then have to sit stationary for 10 minutes before moving the train (thus adding 10 minutes to the already delayed service) before being able to check if the fault has been resolved?

I'd also bet good money that any other drivers out there on this forum can think of a good few times where a train fault or degraded working scenario has created a far greater distraction than a mobile phone ever could, and indeed, in such a scenario a more lenient policy around being able to switch a phone on might actually have helped in resolving the situation and reducing workload.

To be clear, I'm not at all suggesting anyone should be using a phone on the move. The GSMR is for that purpose. But at a stand is a different matter. Whilst some policies are well intentioned, they often prevent sensible and appropriate use of technology. Ultimately the end user is often the one most inconvenienced as a result.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
10,969
Location
London
Having worked for 3 TOCs and a FOC so far in my career, I can't think of a single occasion where control have been able to put a call into a train - they don't have the ability to do so as they're not on the same network.

Yes they can. It is just few TOCs have terminals and therefore have to go through NR (control or signaller) to relay instructions.

Often they cannot do it directly but via “Contact Control” message to the train GSMR.
 

JamesT

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2015
Messages
4,840
I'm guessing this is with company phones otherwise it sounds a bit like my mum insisting she has invisible eyes in the back of her head. It would be very illegal for them to be snooping on your personal phone records
As the previous poster was talking about the RAIB - https://www.gov.uk/government/organ...ion-branch/about/personal-information-charter
The data we collect

The RAIB collects personal data to meet its legal obligations for the investigation of rail accidents and serious incidents. This includes data relating to those involved in a rail accident or incident. We also receive personal data from third parties in respect of rail accidents.

The legal basis for RAIB processing personal data

The RAIB carries out its work under the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 (the 2003 Act) and The Railways (Accident Investigation and Reporting) Regulations 2005 (the 2005 Regulations). Section 8(2) of the 2003 Act allows our inspectors to obtain any data, including personal data, that is necessary to carry out a safety investigation, and requires individuals to provide that information.
I would take that to mean they have powers similar to how the police can ask the phone company if a mobile was in use just before a car crash.

In more general terms, it is legal for employers to monitor their employees, including on personal devices. The key point is that they have to inform you in advance that they will be doing such monitoring. I would expect that if a TOC is regulating phone usage to that degree, compliance measures would be in the contract along with the rules.
 

renegademaster

Established Member
Joined
22 Jun 2023
Messages
2,211
Location
Croydon
As the previous poster was talking about the RAIB - https://www.gov.uk/government/organ...ion-branch/about/personal-information-charter

I would take that to mean they have powers similar to how the police can ask the phone company if a mobile was in use just before a car crash.

In more general terms, it is legal for employers to monitor their employees, including on personal devices. The key point is that they have to inform you in advance that they will be doing such monitoring. I would expect that if a TOC is regulating phone usage to that degree, compliance measures would be in the contract along with the rules.
Phone companies would never give TOCs the data unless drivers get made to install a monitoring app. As you said if after a crash they might be able to get a witness summons but that's a totally different situation
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
10,969
Location
London
Phone companies would never give TOCs the data unless drivers get made to install a monitoring app. As you said if after a crash they might be able to get a witness summons but that's a totally different situation

Most of the time they don’t need that level of detail. If a phone / text was sent then that should be clear. Also if it’s going that far, the BTP may be involved if they believe a crime has been committed and they can then use their powers which makes this a moot point.
 

driverd

Member
Joined
29 Mar 2021
Messages
904
Location
UK
Yes they can. It is just few TOCs have terminals and therefore have to go through NR (control or signaller) to relay instructions.

So, therefore, they can't. They're not on the network if they don't have the terminal.

Often they cannot do it directly but via “Contact Control” message to the train GSMR.

Again, this isn't a message I've ever received on the GSMR. The most common way of control relaying a message to me at TOCs has been either via platform staff or the guard, both of whom have been contacted via mobile phone!
 

BG2024

Member
Joined
12 Oct 2024
Messages
80
Location
Liverpool
There have been several studies among car drivers that have shown that the distracting impacts of phone use go way beyond just the period when the driver is actually using the phone.

One example: "drivers in all the phone present conditions made significantly more driving errors (speeding and collision) compared to those in the phone absent (control) condition, irrespective of proximity to the phone and whether it was on or off ... These findings suggest that the mere presence of a phone is distracting for drivers, especially so for those who are highly dependent on their phone, which may place them at a greater risk of a distraction induced crash." [Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457521002578]

The hardline "Gestapo" approaches mentioned in this thread should be universal.
 

bahnause

Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
1,015
Location
bülach (switzerland)
There have been several studies among car drivers that have shown that the distracting impacts of phone use go way beyond just the period when the driver is actually using the phone.

One example: "drivers in all the phone present conditions made significantly more driving errors (speeding and collision) compared to those in the phone absent (control) condition, irrespective of proximity to the phone and whether it was on or off ... These findings suggest that the mere presence of a phone is distracting for drivers, especially so for those who are highly dependent on their phone, which may place them at a greater risk of a distraction induced crash." [Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0001457521002578]

The hardline "Gestapo" approaches mentioned in this thread should be universal.
If the psychological aptitude required to drive a private motor vehicle on public roads were identical to the requirements for driving a railway vehicle on the national rail network, one could agree with this. However, they are not.
 

AverageJoe

On Moderation
Joined
23 Dec 2021
Messages
671
Location
United Kingdom
Have a look around the mess rooms and see all the drivers with their heads in their devices.

Are you suggesting that train drivers are able to use a personal phone on the move without any of the risk that BG2024 just posted?

A skilled professional isn’t any better at using a phone on the move.
A skilled professional see’s the risks and avoids them. Aka turn phone off.
 

150219

Member
Joined
24 Nov 2009
Messages
471
So, therefore, they can't. They're not on the network if they don't have the terminal.



Again, this isn't a message I've ever received on the GSMR. The most common way of control relaying a message to me at TOCs has been either via platform staff or the guard, both of whom have been contacted via mobile phone!
@Horizon22 is correct. That's not to say that it can't and doesn't happen because you haven't experienced it. It can also be possible to send a 'contact control' message to another operators train.
 

renegademaster

Established Member
Joined
22 Jun 2023
Messages
2,211
Location
Croydon
Surely this could be solved by a locked down company phone that only lets pre approved numbers call eachother and social media blocked etc.

Do the driver iPads have SIM cards?
 

bahnause

Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
1,015
Location
bülach (switzerland)
Surely this could be solved by a locked down company phone that only lets pre approved numbers call eachother and social media blocked etc.

Do the driver iPads have SIM cards?
It doesn't really need to be locked. Most of the callers know when to call and when not to call since they have access to the planning systems. And just like with GSM-R radio, it is always possible to ignore a call if the situation requires it. This is a topic that is repeatedly addressed in training courses.

Our iPads all use a data SIM as they receive dynamic timetable and speed information while driving (and some other stuff you won't notice during driving).
 

RiverDon

On Moderation
Joined
11 Mar 2024
Messages
297
Location
UK
Surely this could be solved by a locked down company phone that only lets pre approved numbers call eachother and social media blocked etc.

Do the driver iPads have SIM cards?

My company gives drivers Samsung tablets which have a 5G EE sim and connect automatically to company wifi when its available but they are required to be switched to flight mode or switched off when you are in the cab. I think the sim card has a mobile number meaning the device could theoretically send and receive text messages but that function isn't used. I was speaking to a LNER driver a few weeks ago and they use their tablet for the DAS with a special holder and charger socket built into the cab desk but my company would never allow that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top