I have to agree with the other guys I'm afraid. There are some drivers on GA who have had serious incidents that have been "punished" with a year on the depot. There is a huge difference between depot driving and driving on the mainline. My point is that on GA you have to start out as a depot driver to get to mainline, but as long as you don't mess up in the depot you are pretty much certain to go mainline within a few years. There is no competition with guards or any other grade as all guards and other grades have to be depot drivers first before going mainline. Other posts suggested that depot drivers had to compete with other grades for mainline positions but that simply isn't the case at least on GA anyway. Considering Depot Drivers have to pass the assessments to mainline standards and get taught the rule book 2/3 of the way to mainline standard then I doubt they have much competition with guards etc for others TOC's either.
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Driver Jobs - realistic prospects
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Beveridges
Established Member
You can't compare the Depot Driving you did during your training on Newton Heath with your Driver Trainer with performing the role of an MDD. I did that same training during the first 6 weeks of my course, and there is absolutely NO COMPARISON.
You didn't even scratch the surface of what an MDD role is about.
Mainline is more monotonous than MDD Driving - *Especially* if you only sign a few routes. For christ sake you driving all the time, some days up and down the same route for most of the day in the seat for 6 hours on same type of unit.
Now in a typical night at Newton Heath, you would have performed around 20 different shunt moves (there are well over 10,000 posibilities) around a busy complex depot, avoiding conflicting moves using hand-held radios. Performed ground shunting tasks, pulling points, handsignalling propelling moves. Shunting using radios or bell buzzers. Despatched trains off the sidings and dealt with depot arrivals. Fuelled and tanked, topped up engine oil and coolant levels on a few units. Carried out fault finding tasks probably about 15-30 times in one shift, dealing with all sorts of faults. Coupled & uncoupled over 10 times. Carried out a wide range of safety-critical comms about 50 times and listened to & acted upon over a hundred safety-critical messages on the radio. Walked over 8 miles. Re-positioned units on the fuel rig. Split units in half. Put split units back together again. Moved or assisted with a swinger unit or two. Repositioned units in the shed or the underfloor for maintenance. Raised the EBS, isolated the TIS, isolated/disolating batteries or the Engine, isolated isolating cocks, at least once per shift. Prepped different units, probably about 6 to 8. Got on and off different units all the time, the full range of traction. Marshalling units in the yard. Leaving room for appropriate types of units and arranging formations. Lots of problem solving as well. Thats without mentioning the team work, plus the amount of breaks you get if you want them. The fact that the job has a better balance of outdoor and indoor work. Then theres the relaxing moments to break up the action, the fact that sometimes you can be paid to sit on a comfy 156 unit for 20 minutes while it's being fuelled, or paid to hang around a knackered unit that takes forever to build up air. Every moment is different, you don't spend long on the same task, its what makes it great and makes the 11 or 12 hours feel like 6.
Hopefully that will enlighten you about the MDD role and that your comment "One day 35 metres down 3 Road, the next day 37 metres down 3 Road" being somewhat misleading. To someone who wants to drive trains and have a lot of variety, its well worth looking into.
We had someone leave NH for Mainline nearly 2 yr ago, saw him for the first time in ages the other week, says its so damn monotonous on the mainline and regret it. He only signs 4 routes.
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TOCDriver
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I always thought Piccaddily wasn't one of the best Northern depots to drive for
Silv1983
Member
Picc lads get to drive electrics, but Vic get the most variety.
Beveridges
Established Member
Thought Picc had the most variety as they get a mix of both diesel and electric. Must be one of the depots with the most routes as well, but going off what I heard, you don't sign most of them for years
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Oh change the record will you, for heaven's sake. Yes - it's a good job you didn't make the cut as a mainline driver, since you profess to find it so boring from your vast experience of a couple of front end turns and from listening to messroom gossip. No - it does not follow that it IS in fact boring for those of us who are suited to the role. I do this job as a lifestyle choice, earning far less than I used to, because it is so enjoyable - and driving expertly and professionally for 40-70 stops a day, as well as 125mph running, and out of course working, emergencies, shunts etc is anything but dull - PROVIDED you are suited to it and have a good attitude.
Your constant sniping and obvious bitterness stick in my craw.
Beveridges
Established Member
I'm just defending a role that gets a lot of stick and unfairly gets "put down" as being an inferior role to mainline on here.
I'm just trying to enlighten some of the members on here who posted such ill informed statements about MDD.
There will be members on here reading those poor comments and then go thinking MDD is inferior to Mainline so be put off applying!
I know this for a fact as I had a PM recently from someone asking me "I have an Interview for DD, is this even worth going for or should I hang on and wait for mainline vacancies!"
I'm just trying to enlighten some of the members on here who posted such ill informed statements about MDD.
There will be members on here reading those poor comments and then go thinking MDD is inferior to Mainline so be put off applying!
I know this for a fact as I had a PM recently from someone asking me "I have an Interview for DD, is this even worth going for or should I hang on and wait for mainline vacancies!"
Silv1983
Member
Picc:
Chester / Airport / Crewe (via Styal or Hadfield) / Stoke / Hadfield / Marple / Buxton / Sheffield
Vic:
Chester (via altrincham) / Liverpool / Kirkby / Southport (Via Bolton or Atherton) / Blackpool North (Via Preston) / Clitheroe (Via Blackburn) / Huddersfield / Rochdale / Airport / Guide Bridge & Ashburys / Stockport and Hazel Grove / WCML between WNW and Preston / Cherry Tree. Oh, and Vic lads sign Picc but not vice versa.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
He should go back then?
An important part of the recruitment process which is addressed during managers' interview and at the assessment centre is to root out people who lack the skills and qualities to overcome boredom and are unable to concentrate. Most mainline train drivers don't suffer from '"experiencing monotony" because they have the mental ability to overcome it. Some, in your friends case, do not it seems.
You crack me up. I don't know why.
Beveridges
Established Member
Yes but surely not all in one link ?
Some cope with repetetive work better than others, some of the ones who couldn't cope with it ended up on shed.
The downfall of two of the ex-mainline MDD drivers was caused by monotony, which lead to lapse in concentration and having SPAD's. Both came from Vic but they only signed very few routes, in some sort of new starters link that they used to have. The work was intense, lots of hours in the seat over very few routes. Same activity day in day out. But they have no problem with MDD work, the variety must make it easier to stay alert.
Anyway, as I am stuck at the premier depots most of the time, you all assume I know nothing. I have never known a grade be degraded as much as MDD on this forum and Railchat. Must be this hatred thing mainline drivers have for MDD's, maybe fuelled by an assumption that we have got it easier. I will not tolerate any of this "talking down" and it is even more noticable from the freight drivers.
I do not tolerate the "talking down". But I am not bitter. I could go on, but I have to end this post... theres some more shunting to be done...
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The thing is Bev, and sorry pal for bring this up again but there are people on here who want to go mainline driving and read posts and go for MDD as they think that it is "train driving" as per mainline and it is a completely different role, different training etc. As I previously mentioned, Depot Driving is an important role, I could do depot driving and I do on the night shed job but unfortunatlely an MDD cannot go on the mainline.
As for monotonous and boring that all depends on you perspective of the job with mainline, personally I do not care what job I have even if it is the same route all week, I enjoy the job, never think it is boring and monotonous and any mainline driver who does should relinquish their post as a driver and let someone else do it who enjoys it.
MDD has its place as does mainline driving, they are totally different roles, different tarining, different recruitment procedures and to be fair I would personally say that if you want to grade "the driving grade" MDD is a differnet grade of train driving.
You will naturally defend your position but you do need to realise that most of the drivers on mainline do not want to be an MDD, can you say the same for MDD's?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bev, how do you know that these SPADS were caused by monotony? A SPAD is invetigated thoroughly and I doubt if you are qualified to second guess the reasons, this is an assumption, if they were in the starter link and had a SPAD so early in their career the investigating manager would look firstly into the recruitment, then the training, then the shift pattern,m then the fatigue index and then into repetitive workings.
Monotony may have been a part of the root cause of the SPADS but not the underlying root cause, this could have been for any reason and I doubt very much the people in question would divulge the real root cause to the incidents.
I Used to go over routes day in and day out and I would concentrate and not become "complacent" the highest risk of incidents is in year 2 to year 4 of a driver career and this is usually down to complacency and not boredom!
plastictaffy
Member
I was speaking to a driver the other night on my way home. He used to drive for Scotrail. Signed almost everything, pretty much everywhere. Everything from 08's to class 91's - but not HST's for some reason!!
Came to us about three years ago I believe.
Now signs Desiro's only, on half of the route that I sign. Doesn't sign to Brum, doesn't sign the Abbey line, doesn't sign the "Old Line", doesn't sign Bedford on the 150/153. And you know what?? He loves it. Same route all day, every day, he says. He doesn't have to remember all the different types of traction, over different routes all the while. Doesn't have to worry about going from diesel to electric and back again.
In his words, he's happy as a pig in sh*t!!! Monotonous?? Doesn't sound like it to me, he reckons one day is never the same as the next, even though he's on the same route, on the same traction, all the time!!! I'd gladly give my right leg to be doing what he does!!!
Came to us about three years ago I believe.
Now signs Desiro's only, on half of the route that I sign. Doesn't sign to Brum, doesn't sign the Abbey line, doesn't sign the "Old Line", doesn't sign Bedford on the 150/153. And you know what?? He loves it. Same route all day, every day, he says. He doesn't have to remember all the different types of traction, over different routes all the while. Doesn't have to worry about going from diesel to electric and back again.
In his words, he's happy as a pig in sh*t!!! Monotonous?? Doesn't sound like it to me, he reckons one day is never the same as the next, even though he's on the same route, on the same traction, all the time!!! I'd gladly give my right leg to be doing what he does!!!
Silv1983
Member
Beveridges
Established Member
Yes certainly
Most say no and a small percentage say maybe
Regarding plastic taffys comment some people must like repetitive work then, personally I don't, it's bad enough if I have to prep two 150s in a row!
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notadriver
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Surely the depot driving bit of an MDD's job (shunting around the yard) is done by main line drivers at some point anyway?
Beveridges
Established Member
No just taking stuff on and off and that's it if the depot has MDDs
Besides even if they shunted you'd still need someone to move the demics from one road to another, reposition on the fuel rig or maintenance shed, pull points, perform ground shunting and DP Duties, move swingers and haulers, split units, put units back together again, Marshall units in the yard, fuel, tank, prep, toilet duties, coolant and engine oil, light repairs, move half units around, and so on
Besides even if they shunted you'd still need someone to move the demics from one road to another, reposition on the fuel rig or maintenance shed, pull points, perform ground shunting and DP Duties, move swingers and haulers, split units, put units back together again, Marshall units in the yard, fuel, tank, prep, toilet duties, coolant and engine oil, light repairs, move half units around, and so on
Pugland53
Member
Yes, we get rostered depot turns in our links. We don't do the dirty stuff like toilets/fuelling but we do all the moves around the depot, we have shunters to pull the points. I don't mind doing it as its a different work, but I'd much rather be out on the mainline actually driving a train than plodding around at 5mph in the yard, not much fun in that IMO.
Beveridges
Established Member
But in a proper MDD role we do everything and make our own decisions, rather than just driving around acting on a ground shunters instructions and having points set for us. Now that wouldn't be much fun. Plus there's moving all the demic units which is where the real fun begins.
To any person on here thinking of becoming a Driver- do not let the negative comments put you off the MDD option. Some of the ex mainline types find it far more "fun"(if that's the right word) than the mainline was. Not putting anyone off applying for mainline but don't think it's the only option
To any person on here thinking of becoming a Driver- do not let the negative comments put you off the MDD option. Some of the ex mainline types find it far more "fun"(if that's the right word) than the mainline was. Not putting anyone off applying for mainline but don't think it's the only option
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plastictaffy
Member
Oh, I wouldn't be so sure, I know of at least 2 drivers who have a false one!!!
My god do you ever give up pal,we all know your hatred for mainline drivers as you failed to get on but to keep going on like you have the best job in the world just bores me to death.I kill myself laughing reading your posts. I couldn't think of anything worse than trundling around a depot at 5mph!! You clearly still have no idea about mainline driving.Its a promotion depot driver/shunter whatever you want to call it to get mainline,but in your eyes it's the opposite way round ,absolutely deluded,if I paid you 50k a year to go up and down say the east coast would you take it???? or would you still like to do your million tasks and shunting in a yard!!!!!
I thin you may hav Bev wrong here pal. I don't think he hates mainline drivers or the role, I just think he loves the job he is doing. I also think if he had gained the position of a mainline job originally he would have loved that too. However, I know, you know and so do most that anyone wanting to be a driver would prefer a mainline job initially but if they get an MDD job and never been mainline they only know the MDD role. I know it for Bev to answer for himself but I an observing this from both sides in an open minded way.
Personally I would never want to be an MDD and love my job as a mainline driver but as I previously mentioned I quite like it that there are a lot of MDD drivers as it saves me having to do shed duties on a regular basis.
Beveridges
Established Member
No Jambo you got it wrong, the only mainline drivers I have a hatred of are the ones like you that think they can talk down to MDDs.
Some drivers think mainline is better, others think depot driving is better, we can argue about this forever nothing said on here will change opinions. They are two different types of driving, one can be happy doing one but not the other (both ways) it depends on the type of person. But some very poor comments had been posted about MDD on here so all I have done is step in and set the record straight.
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Agree totally depends on the person, we have mainline drivers that volunteer to go on the shed all the time
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