Driver injured due to electric shock.

[muz379]

Your points about lack of illumination for evacuation and difficulty of opening internal doors, are both interesting. Should trains carry a set of torches in the cupboard with other emergency equipment or do they already?

I would encourage you to write to the RAIB about your experiences,
www.raib.gov.uk/about_us/further_information.cfm
so that something might be learned by the industry for futher action.

trains have got glow sticks in the cabs and the passenger cabins . and any traincrew working on the train should have a hand lamp . I personally also carry an extra torch when I am at work which is more powerful than my hand lamp .

That being said If I where to be doing a controlled evacuation at night in a particularly dangerous location or somewhere where the ambient light is low enough I would expect network rail to bring some portable floodlights to assist .

 

[Trainfan344]

http://www.runcornandwidnesworld.co.uk/news/11498691.Train_driver_electrocuted_on_railway_line_near_Runcorn/

A TRAIN driver electrocuted on a railway line near Runcorn is being treated in hospital for extensive burns.

He left the London bound Virgin train to investigate a problem when it is believed he touched a wire and was blown off his feet.

Two ambulances, a doctor, heart team, hazardous response specialists and two rapid response vehicles attended.

Sounds Nasty

 

[Baxenden Bank]

trains have got glow sticks in the cabs and the passenger cabins . and any traincrew working on the train should have a hand lamp . I personally also carry an extra torch when I am at work which is more powerful than my hand lamp .

That being said If I where to be doing a controlled evacuation at night in a particularly dangerous location or somewhere where the ambient light is low enough I would expect network rail to bring some portable floodlights to assist .

Agreed.

Rail staff know the trip hazards of walking along ballasted track, even in daylight with safety boots. How is a passenger in high heels or flip-flops expected to manage it, especially in the dark?

There are, I am sure, rules about evacuating trains. Were they followed?

On train posters state to stay on the train, perhaps move into an adjacent carriage, unless in immediate danger.

 

[muz379]

Agreed.

Rail staff know the trip hazards of walking along ballasted track, even in daylight with safety boots. How is a passenger in high heels or flip-flops expected to manage it, especially in the dark?

There are, I am sure, rules about evacuating trains. Were they followed?

On train posters state to stay on the train, perhaps move into an adjacent carriage, unless in immediate danger.

its not just the ballast its all the junk that is dumped near the line as well like old shopping trolleys and old bits of rail . In the dark with minimal light it could be quite risky

Procedure at my TOC at least is to have staff sent from my TOC to the affected train to assist in the evacuation , the route from the train to a place off the railway also will be organized in advance and alternative transport will either be there or nearly there .

also there will be a MOM and RIO from network rail to assist .

but to the best of my knowledge the actual rules to do with a controlled evacuations merely pertain to assurances being received from the signaler that the line is blocked and any related electrification is switched off .

Personally If I wasn't happy with the measures put in place to assist me and the driver in evacuating our passengers from the train I would make my objections very clear to control before going ahead with the evacuation . If they choose not to listen I have tried my very best and anything that goes wrong is then on their heads.

 

[455driver]

Personally If I wasn't happy with the measures put in place to assist me and the driver in evacuating our passengers from the train I would make my objections very clear to control before going ahead with the evacuation . If they choose not to listen I have tried my very best and anything that goes wrong is then on their heads.

Good luck making that one stick!
the only time I had an 'issue' with an instruction from Control I asked the controller for his name, when he refused to tell me I said I was refusing to carry out his instruction. If he wasnt willing to put his name to it, I wasnt willing to do it!

Most of our controllers are very good though.

 

[muz379]

Good luck making that one stick!
the only time I had an 'issue' with an instruction from Control I asked the controller for his name, when he refused to tell me I said I was refusing to carry out his instruction. If he wasnt willing to put his name to it, I wasnt willing to do it!

Most of our controllers are very good though.

Given that all phone calls to control are recorded If there was every any comeback on me all I have to do is provide the date and approx time of the call and what exactly was said by whom can be poured over again and again over a coffee at a leisurely pace by some managers .

negates the need for all of the he said she said rubbish

 

[455driver]

Recordings can and do go missing, get corrupted etc!
I have known signalbox phone calls go missing, signal logs get corrupted so they could stick a SPAD and derailment on the driver instead of it being an infrastructure problem despite the driver, guard, dispatcher and 2 other staff all saying the signal was green.
I wont go into what the Pway said about the state of the points but it all left a very sour taste in everyones mouth.

 

[muz379]

Recordings can and do go missing, get corrupted etc!
I have known signalbox phone calls go missing, signal logs get corrupted so they could stick a SPAD and derailment on the driver instead of it being an infrastructure problem despite the driver, guard, dispatcher and 2 other staff all saying the signal was green.
I wont go into what the Pway said about the state of the points but it all left a very sour taste in everyones mouth.

Oh I'm aware these things can happen

but then if someone at control really wants to stick something on you they could make the allegation quite easily if its your word against there's .Even if you have their name

 

[455driver]

Oh I agree it can still go wrong, but the mere fact I have asked for their name seems to concentrate their mind a bit more.

 

[BestWestern]

A staff briefing notice has appeared at our TOC relating to this incident, reminding those of us who work under the wires of the basics - primarily, stay well out of the way. It mentiones the Driver (from 'another operator' of course) having left his cab during an OHLE incident and having been zapped by the residual current which we know caused his injuries.

 

[cossie4i]

Does anybody know how the driver is ?.

 

[edwin_m]

RAIB investigation under way: http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/current_investigations_register/140923_sutton_weaver.cfm

 

[snowball]

RAIB report now published:

https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/train-driver-receiving-a-severe-electric-shock-at-sutton-weaver

 

[alexl92]

I'm interested to know if the gentleman on the evacuated train ever contacted the TOC regarding the evacuation and the taxis etc, and if he got a response?

 

[deltic1989]

The RAIB report makes interesting (if a little scary,to the un-initiated) reading.
When I say uninitiated I include myself under that banner.
The report states that the driver left the cab, to establish the post number of the OLE mast where the problem was. It doesn't mention that the driver took any form of illumination with him, which I would have thought under the circumstances would have been sensible.
I understand that the driver needed to get the post number of the mast to inform control of where the problem lies. However, given that it had been established that there was an issue with the OLE, which could pose a risk to person, would it not have been more sensible to go one mast back from the broken wire report the number of that mast, and then state "it's one mast closer to Liverpool than the number I just quoted"?
I'm not trying to place any blame at the driver's door, what happened here was an unfortunate accident. I am however just wondering if the method I described would have been possible.

 

[the sniper]

It doesn't mention that the driver took any form of illumination with him, which I would have thought under the circumstances would have been sensible.

It wasn't dark.

EDIT: To clarify that, it was dusk. The report suggest that the driver may have had his head down due to the drizzle.

I understand that the driver needed to get the post number of the mast to inform control of where the problem lies. However, given that it had been established that there was an issue with the OLE, which could pose a risk to person, would it not have been more sensible to go one mast back from the broken wire report the number of that mast, and then state "it's one mast closer to Liverpool than the number I just quoted"?

Maybe it'd have been better to avoid walking into the wire hanging in the 4 foot too, if only you'd have been there with your wisdom of hindsight to let the driver know... Your suggestion would have involved walking down the cess, which the report says the driver avoided due to the rubbish left in it.

 

[sbt]

And here we see the legendary RailUK knee jerk aggression in the face of anything that could be remotely interpreted as criticism of rail staff...

He did make it abundantly clear that he was just asking if it was POSSIBLE and that no criticism of the Driver for going forward (after all, if that what the procedures say...) was intended.

----

Reading the report its unclear whether the cess back to the last would have been blocked - the site photos do not show a long line of stacked rail in the cess, just blocks, one of which is where the driver would have had to walk to avoid the wire.

It occurs to me that an update of procedures should be considered to:

a) Suggest that drivers consider, depending on the situation (obviously if the wire is son on your own train it would probably be a bad idea), walking back down the track to the mast in rear to ID the location

b) Holding a table or database, and making it easily accessible to signallers, of Signal locations relative to masts in the Signal Box / Control Centre. The database could/should hold information on other lineside landmarks that can be unambiguously identified (eg. numbered location cases?). This could, again depending on the location and situation, remove the need for anyone to leave the train or, if they had to, reduce the distance they have to travel whilst exposed to potential danger.

No doubt these will be considered as one of the recommendations is:

RSSB should review Module AC of the Rule Book (GE/RT8000/AC)
and appropriately clarify the actions that train crew should take if they
are required to leave their train in situations where the OLE is electrically
live, and may possibly be damaged (paragraph 101b).
​

Oh, and it wasn't residual charge he was hit with, it was the full traction current. He is a very lucky driver to be alive.

 

[Darandio]

Maybe it'd have been better to avoid walking into the wire hanging in the 4 foot too, if only you'd have been there with your wisdom of hindsight to let the driver know... Your suggestion would have involved walking down the cess, which the report says the driver avoided due to the rubbish left in it.

Uncalled for. It's really no wonder threads are appearing asking for alternative forums.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

This bit interests me, from the front page on the RAIB website - link given in earlier post.

Two previous trains had come into contact with this hanging wire and consequently tripped the power supply circuit breakers. Each time the circuit breakers had been reset by the Electrical Control Operators in accordance with procedures to make the overhead wires electrically live again.

Is it common for two trains to trip the breakers and for the power to be restored without an investigation of what was causing the circuit breakers to trip? Was the subsequently injured driver made aware of the two resets and that there may therefore be a problem out there?

 

[edwin_m]

Is it common for two trains to trip the breakers and for the power to be restored without an investigation of what was causing the circuit breakers to trip? Was the subsequently injured driver made aware of the two resets and that there may therefore be a problem out there?

If you read beyond the front page you will find that the driver would have been cautioned through the section to examine the line for this very reason, except that the train had already passed the last signal it could have been stopped at to do so. As it is, the train was slowed by adverse signals because the previous one that stopped hadn't yet moved off. The driver was therefore going slowly enough to see and stop short of the damaged OLE.

 

[alexl92]

Forgive me if this is a silly suggestion, but further to the suggestion about walking back one mast, if the cess was blocked, couldn't the driver have walked back through the train to the rear cab, climbed out there and sought out the nearest mast - so at least they would have known the location of the train?

Not trying to place any blame on the driver here or anything like that. Just asking if that would have been a logical option.

 

[driver_m]

Might be worth adding here that the plates identifying the stantions at the location are in a very poor state. Bear in mind these points as well. The location is naturally quite dark with it being tree lined and the fact that it was the auxiliary wire that had dropped. Not the usual contact or catenary wire that normally gets wrecked with ole damage. The auxiliary wire is much rarer nowadays as the report says. If you look on the slow lines of the wcml it's a rarity even there. It is a bit thinner than the contact wire too. Wouldn't be hard to miss it.

The breakers tripping once could be put down to a number of things and aren't an unknown thing. Twice would result in an investigation but this was all happening in quick succession wasn't it, so it would be a case of getting down there to find the problem.

I've been asked to examine the line at various structures in the past, portals in particular have plates only on every second one in your direction so it's not always straightforward to see the plate. At the end of the day the driver was trying to help out a signaller in the box to pinpoint the location.

 

[the sniper]

And here we see the legendary RailUK knee jerk aggression in the face of anything that could be remotely interpreted as criticism of rail staff...

He did make it abundantly clear that he was just asking if it was POSSIBLE and that no criticism of the Driver for going forward (after all, if that what the procedures say...) was intended.

I don't care if anyone criticises rail staff, I didn't even consider it as such. I wasn't defending the driver. I'm just bemused as to what the point is in now pointing out various ways in which the driver could have avoided getting shocked. It's fairly bleedin' obvious anyway, but unless someone is going to travel back in time and whisper in the blokes ear that he should be aware of what he was about to do and advise what course of action to take to avoid it in this specific situation, nothing is going to be achieved.

Plus I didn't say the driver physically couldn't walk down the cess, neither does the report, I was pointing out the driver, there and then, avoided the cess for the reason he gave in the report. If he'd have anticipated what was going to happen to him or been aware of the cable, he'd have stayed in the train. He says so in the report. So why analyse why he didn't walk back down the train along the cess instead of going forward down the 4 foot? If the wire had been hanging there in the cess would folk instead be asking why he didn't walk forward? This discussion just seems pointless to me, sorry...

 

[TDK]

I find it quite disconcerting that many on this forum are bickering on the terminology of Electrocuted etc. Who give a monkeys on the Oxford dictionary or Wiki on whether the correct quote is electrocuted or electric shock.

For your information the rule book quotes that a unit cannot be left unattended on a running line and this may be the reason the LM staff were unable to stay with passengers while they were waiting for a taxi.

My thoughts are with the driver, his family and his colleagues. One other thing if an employee is injured whilst on duty it is down to the company to inform relatives.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would the info on the plates be available on any loco/unit equipped with the DAS?

 

[najaB]

I'm just bemused as to what the point is in now pointing out various ways in which the driver could have avoided getting shocked. It's fairly bleedin' obvious anyway, but unless someone is going to travel back in time and whisper in the blokes ear that he should be aware of what he was about to do and advise what course of action to take to avoid it in this specific situation, nothing is going to be achieved....

This discussion just seems pointless to me, sorry...

I think everyone understands that what has happened can't be changed. They are, in a roundabout way, trying to see if there's a better way to do things in order to avoid any incident like this happening to any other driver.

 

[Retorus]

The pedantry in this thread is brilliant.

 

[talltim]

If you really want to be pedantic, if you take electrocution to have to involve death, how do you know if someone has been electrocuted until they have either died (maybe months later) or fully recovered (also maybe months later)?

 

[DaleCooper]

If you really want to be pedantic, if you take electrocution to involve death, how do you know if someone has been electrocuted until they have either died (maybe months later) or fully recovered (also maybe months later)?

If you really, really want to be pedantic:

According to many sources, including Oxford Dictionaries, in British English electrocute means "Injure or kill someone by electric shock".

 

[talltim]

If you really, really want to be pedantic:

According to many sources, including Oxford Dictionaries, in British English electrocute means "Injure or kill someone by electric shock".

I've read the thread, that has been mentioned several times (and is what I think of when I hear of electrocution). However, I was commenting for those that think electrocution has to involve death.