Driver hours

[strange6]

Is there a legal maximum amount of time that train drivers are allowed to drive before they are required to take a compulsory brake? The driver on my route tonight was driving for 2.5 hours non stop.

 

[GB]

Can't remember what the limit is but it is more than 2.5 hours.

 

[strange6]

Can't remember what the limit is but it is more than 2.5 hours.

My bum was starting to get a bit numb by then so I was amazed when he came out of the cab looking fresh and ready for more. Having said that, I need to concentrate on my job most of the time and you would be surprisd how time flies by. 2.5 hours does seem like 10 minutes in all honesty so I can't see it being a problem for them

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Depends on several things, class of train being the main one and (I think) codifications of each individual depot. I dont have a copy of my local codifications handy, but I think we can go for 3hrs30mins on a class 2 train and 4hrs on a class 1 train. Dunno about freight. Even then companies can squeeze 'efficiency' out of drivers by putting in short breaks (CDB) which means time out of the cab rather than time away from the train. It is not unusual to be on a train for five hours before you can get to a mess room for a proper break.

 

[strange6]

Depends on several things, class of train being the main one and (I think) codifications of each individual depot. I dont have a copy of my local codifications handy, but I think we can go for 3hrs30mins on a class 2 train and 4hrs on a class 1 train. Dunno about freight. Even then companies can squeeze 'efficiency' out of drivers by putting in short breaks (CDB) which means time out of the cab rather than time away from the train. It is not unusual to be on a train for five hours before you can get to a mess room for a proper break.

Thanks for that! This would have been a class 2 train and the hours do seem a bit too long without taking a break in my humble opinion. 2 hours max is more appropriate, especially if night driving.

 

[N Levers]

Cant remeber which TOC it was but they were 3 hours non-stop driving, 4 if it called somewhere in the first 3 hours and 5 hours if there was a change of ends in the first 4 hours... the change ends doesn't count as break so 5 hours (subject to above conditions)

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Thanks for that! This would have been a class 2 train and the hours do seem a bit too long without taking a break in my humble opinion. 2 hours max is more appropriate, especially if night driving.

Two hours isnt very realistic tbh. People have been driving trains safely in longer blocks than that for 150 years. Night driving isnt really any more difficult than day driving either, so I am not sure why a distinction needs to be drawn. It would play havoc with diagramming if it did exist because of the wild fluctuations as to what time it gets dark in this country.

 

[GB]

Some of the (freight) drivers I know prefer night driving as its less stressfull.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I would imagine that is because they run on restrictive aspects and get looped less often rather than any visibility reasons.

 

[strange6]

I was just thinking on the advice car drivers get given to them. I know after a spell of night driving on the mortorway, my concentration can start to wane at times.

 

[GB]

I would imagine that is because they run on restrictive aspects and get looped less often rather than any visibility reasons.

You are right about less restrictive aspects at night but visibility does play a part. Signals are obviously brighter and easier to pick out (tho some are too bright) and you don't need to worry whats going on in the back ground as you can't see it!

 

[strange6]

You are right about less restrictive aspects at night but visibility does play a part. Signals are obviously brighter and easier to pick out (tho some are too bright) and you don't need to worry whats going on in the back ground as you can't see it!

Yeah, but because it's less stressful there is a lot less for the brain to deal with and from a psychological perspective, the brain can get more complacent and therefore the concentration can wane and tiredness to creep in. But, that's my opinion; I'm not going to argue with professionals

 

[richw]

I was just thinking on the advice car drivers get given to them. I know after a spell of night driving on the mortorway, my concentration can start to wane at times.

If i'm driving i tend to stop for 20 mins every 3-4 hours, any longer i do stupid things losing concentration, such as going over the speed limit etc

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Depends on the operator and the work content - 4 to 10 hours on duty, usually max of 3hours or so driving (max) before a cab break - or a break from the cab.

All are "risk assessed" for fatigue etc ...

 

[Temple Meads]

I was on an SWT train from Exeter to London yesterday, and did wonder if it was the same driver for the whole journey, or wether they changed at Salisbury.

 

[driver9000]

4hr30 for us without a break. Quite often do 4 hours driving in one sitting.

 

[westcoaster]

Pnb has to be finished by the 7th hour for us, got several jobs with 4.5 hours continuous driving without getting out the cab.

 

[Pacerpilot]

For our lot its:

4hr30 for Intensive Suburban (Valleys)
4hr45 for Regional work
5hrs for ECS

 

[rmt-driver]

For our lot its:

4hr30 for Intensive Suburban (Valleys)
4hr45 for Regional work
5hrs for ECS

Half an hour when driving a pacer ?

 

[Minilad]

4hrs 45 for us. Do Birmingham to Cardiff and back without a break just a change ends at Cardiff. Bournemouth is 3hrs 10mins a bit longer if you have a shunt on the end too

 

[TDK]

4 hours intensive
4 hours 30m non intensive

more if late running.

The structure for cab breaks and personal needs breaks is quite intricate and agreed by the unions and is usually different for each TOC. I have been in the seat for long periods of time but when there is disruption and I am sitting at a signal for a length of time I get out the cab for a few minutes to use the SPT and that to me is an adequate break, you would be surprised how quick the time actually goes when driving a train, 2 hours is nothing and to be honest after 4 hours continuous driving I don't loose any concentration, maybe this is why sometimes the recruitment is quite hard and some of the tests are relevent.

However, when you are sitting at a terminus and awaiting the late departure of your train and an announcement says the driver is taking their break this is a compulsory requirement and if the driver does not take their break and has an incident the driver will be to blame.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Two hours isnt very realistic tbh. People have been driving trains safely in longer blocks than that for 150 years. Night driving isnt really any more difficult than day driving either, so I am not sure why a distinction needs to be drawn. It would play havoc with diagramming if it did exist because of the wild fluctuations as to what time it gets dark in this country.

It's not the darkness that is the issue it's the natural circadian rhythm that means no matter how well you manage your lifestyle, alertness will drop in the early hours of the morning.

That said I do agree that 2 hours is unrealistic.

 

[Grantham]

It's not the darkness that is the issue it's the natural circadian rhythm that means no matter how well you manage your lifestyle, alertness will drop in the early hours of the morning.

That said I do agree that 2 hours is unrealistic.

Driving trains at night is so much easier than during the day it isn't funny. Anyone who wants to compare it with driving motor cars can take it that the two are not related in the slightest.

And everyone has a difference in rythms...some people are morning people, some are night owls.

I am a night owl, I have been doing back shift for a fortnight, second last one today, starting at 2200. There is no continuous driving limit here (Australia) but there is a driving shift limit of 12 hours. It's uncommon but not unknown to drive without a break for a nearly a full shift.

Dawn the other day, I see a lot of dawns!

Mick

 

[Rugd1022]

Some of our diagrams are just under twelve hours and the majority of them are around nine / ten hours, they usually have two 45 minute breaks slotted in where it's considered convenient. The problem is some of the places we go to don't actually have proper facilities, ie: somewhere away from the loco with running water and a toilet. We often have to 'make do' or use other TOC facilities under agreement. I've been on several ballast jobs where I've sat on the loco for up to eight hours and not seen a soul all night, so I'd get off just to stretch my legs and get some fresh air.

On paper, as others have said it's all worked out to the last full stop, but in practice on the freight side it's not quite what it should be, not all of the taime anyway. Sometimes it can work in your favour, if you're on a six hour job the single break is often tacked onto the end of the diagram, by which tme we're usually on our way home in the staff van after getting relief.

As for day / night driving, I like them both these days, depending on the seasons. Night driving is a lot easier in some ways, the advance 'glow' of a signal aspect on the rail head round a bend is very reassuring.

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

Driving trains at night is so much easier than during the day it isn't funny. Anyone who wants to compare it with driving motor cars can take it that the two are not related in the slightest.

And everyone has a difference in rythms...some people are morning people, some are night owls.

I am a night owl, I have been doing back shift for a fortnight, second last one today, starting at 2200. There is no continuous driving limit here (Australia) but there is a driving shift limit of 12 hours. It's uncommon but not unknown to drive without a break for a nearly a full shift.

Dawn the other day, I see a lot of dawns!

Mick

You may very well be able to cope perfectly on nights, and as with a number of people, actually enjoy them.

Although some people can have a tendancy towards being alert earlier or later in the day, virtually everybody will see their alertness dip in the early hours of the morning, when our body naturally wants to sleep. The tiny minority that feel more alert during the early hours (and less awake during the day) can be considered to have a sleeping disorder.

However, please do not take this as any suggestion that I believe you are unsafe, or unable to function properly on nights. Proper lifestyle management as you are clearly demonstrating means working on nights should pose no significant issues. But that does not mean you are don't suffer the natural dip in alterness that humans are programmed to suffer from, and that roster management should not take this into account.

 

[richw]

You may very well be able to cope perfectly on nights, and as with a number of people, actually enjoy them.

Although some people can have a tendancy towards being alert earlier or later in the day, virtually everybody will see their alertness dip in the early hours of the morning, when our body naturally wants to sleep. The tiny minority that feel more alert during the early hours (and less awake during the day) can be considered to have a sleeping disorder.

However, please do not take this as any suggestion that I believe you are unsafe, or unable to function properly on nights. Proper lifestyle management as you are clearly demonstrating means working on nights should pose no significant issues. But that does not mean you are don't suffer the natural dip in alterness that humans are programmed to suffer from, and that roster management should not take this into account.

I disagree with this comment completely. Having worked night shifts of 2200-0600 for 4 years up until 2009, I was completely 100% alert at the early hours as that is my body clock. I definitely did not have a sleeping disorder. I slept without fail from 1100-1900, getting my 8 hours advised sleep, compared to perhaps the normal 2300-0700. I lived my life 12 hours different to what the general normal people do.

 

[GB]

The tiny minority that feel more alert during the early hours (and less awake during the day) can be considered to have a sleeping disorder.

Utter tosh imo.

 

[Minilad]

I have to admit I am more of a late person. Although we don't have any proper night shifts at our depot I am much more comfortable doing late turns and never feel tired when doing them. On the other hand early shifts really get me down and after 3 or 4 on the trot I know I am getting irritable and grumpy

 

[Get-Pulled-Off]

I disagree with this comment completely. Having worked night shifts of 2200-0600 for 4 years up until 2009, I was completely 100% alert at the early hours as that is my body clock. I definitely did not have a sleeping disorder. I slept without fail from 1100-1900, getting my 8 hours advised sleep, compared to perhaps the normal 2300-0700. I lived my life 12 hours different to what the general normal people do.

Disagree by all means, but you're disagreeing with scientific research that proves that most animals have developed a 24 hour body clock based on the day/night cycle. We have our strongest urge to sleep in the early hours.

Also, you have either misunderstood or delibrately misrepresented what I said. I never said it wasn't possible to be alert in the early hours, but rather than we are less alert at 3am than we would be at 10am. I'm suprised this hasn't been properly briefed for those of us who work night shifts.

Apologies for it being a wikipedia article, but have a read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm. Feel free to complain that it's a wikipedia article, but the information is largely cross referenced and most of the information is available on the web, but it does pull it all together.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Utter tosh imo.

Thanks for your input, very informative!

 

[Rugd1022]

I have to admit I am more of a late person. Although we don't have any proper night shifts at our depot I am much more comfortable doing late turns and never feel tired when doing them. On the other hand early shifts really get me down and after 3 or 4 on the trot I know I am getting irritable and grumpy

I've been on an 03.10 start all week and I'm starting to feel it today.... probably because it's my 46th birthday! I much prefer lates or nights and find I can do weeks of these shifts at a time with no real problems.

Oh look, it's past my bed time... one more shift to do then I can have a lie in... night night all