• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Driver (and Conductor) Badges

Status
Not open for further replies.

GusB

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2016
Messages
8,129
Location
Elginshire
Having just sat through the cringe-fest that was On the Buses on ITV3, I was wondering when the wearing of the red/white badges (green/white for conductors) was discontinued.

All drivers wore these when I was a kid, and they had an alphanumeric code starting with two letters and then a number. Most drivers had "LL", but the younger ones had "MM", therefore I'm assuming that once one number sequence was full, they simply moved onto the next letter in the alphabet.

As well as being interested in when the wearing of these was discontinued, I have another few questions:
  • Is there a modern day equivalent?
  • Did the letters pertain to a certain part of the country, or was it a national sequence?
  • Which organisation issued these badges?
  • Why is it no longer mandatory to wear them?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Volvodart

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2010
Messages
2,945
Some details are in this old thread:-

 
Joined
15 Sep 2019
Messages
734
Location
Back in Geordieland!
Having just sat through the cringe-fest that was On the Buses on ITV3, I was wondering when the wearing of the red/white badges (green/white for conductors) was discontinued.

All drivers wore these when I was a kid, and they had an alphanumeric code starting with two letters and then a number. Most drivers had "LL", but the younger ones had "MM", therefore I'm assuming that once one number sequence was full, they simply moved onto the next letter in the alphabet.

As well as being interested in when the wearing of these was discontinued, I have another few questions:
  • Is there a modern day equivalent?
  • Did the letters pertain to a certain part of the country, or was it a national sequence?
  • Which organisation issued these badges?
  • Why is it no longer mandatory to wear them?
I still have my badge issued in 1985, north East so begins AA, it was slightly different to earlier badges and the black lettering used to wear off.

Regarding " On the buses" I always used to tell people work was about like an X rated version of the show, even down to the wonky toothed lotharios like Jack. How I miss those days.
 

delt1c

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2008
Messages
2,182
Still have my london badge issued in 1978. This has the old style moulded in numbers ( later was flat style). Even though you had passed all LT requirements it still depended on PSV office whether you had a job or not
 

Albaman

Member
Joined
16 Sep 2018
Messages
134
Regarding the post from GusB, when I worked, albeit briefly, as a conductor in a dept in the Glasgow area in 1969, my badge number started with the letters MM and had 6 numbers I can't recall any of the older drivers, or conductors, having badges with other letters. I always assumed MM covered the area of the Scottish Traffic Commissioner. Regarding " On the Buses ", I envied the " conductors " with the their Setright Speeds - the depot where worked it was mostly Setright Inserts with " Speeds " only issued if you were working on one of the busier routes.
 

philthetube

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2016
Messages
4,181
letters were areas, CC was Lancs, I still have both my badges, and what is worse, I still know the numbers.


when going into motorway services it was neccesary to show your badge in order to get a free meal. I wonder what happens now.
 

Ken H

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,718
Location
N Yorks
On Leeds City Transport you sometimes saw a bloke* with both a green and a red badge. I assume he had passed his PSV test but not been promoted to drive service buses yet. or something.

*Never saw female bus drivers when i was a kid in 60's/70's.
 

Eyersey468

Established Member
Joined
14 Sep 2018
Messages
2,597
letters were areas, CC was Lancs, I still have both my badges, and what is worse, I still know the numbers.


when going into motorway services it was neccesary to show your badge in order to get a free meal. I wonder what happens now.
Coach drivers still get a voucher for a free meal if they have passengers, the exact procedure varies depending on the services but normally they take the reg number of the coach and how many passengers you have
 

AndyW33

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2013
Messages
541
On Leeds City Transport you sometimes saw a bloke* with both a green and a red badge. I assume he had passed his PSV test but not been promoted to drive service buses yet. or something.

*Never saw female bus drivers when i was a kid in 60's/70's.
Driver who was promoted from Conductor, most likely, so possessing both badges. Someone who was keen on overtime might well wear both, so if they picked up part of a conducting shift before or after their driving shift, they were wearing the correct badge for both shifts. I have a feeling that (keeping in the 60s/70s language) one-man operators would wear both badges too in this period, but certainly by the 1970s this was not required by the Traffic Commissioners. Again, an omo driver might do overtime or rest day working as a crew driver, but wouldn't bother to take the conductors badge off.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
22,918
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Driver who was promoted from Conductor, most likely, so possessing both badges. Someone who was keen on overtime might well wear both, so if they picked up part of a conducting shift before or after their driving shift, they were wearing the correct badge for both shifts. I have a feeling that (keeping in the 60s/70s language) one-man operators would wear both badges too in this period, but certainly by the 1970s this was not required by the Traffic Commissioners. Again, an omo driver might do overtime or rest day working as a crew driver, but wouldn't bother to take the conductors badge off.
Think you're probably right.

Reckon my mum still has my late fathers badges with his driver badge (AA for North East) plus long service awards and safe driving badges.
 

Ken H

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,718
Location
N Yorks
Driver who was promoted from Conductor, most likely, so possessing both badges. Someone who was keen on overtime might well wear both, so if they picked up part of a conducting shift before or after their driving shift, they were wearing the correct badge for both shifts. I have a feeling that (keeping in the 60s/70s language) one-man operators would wear both badges too in this period, but certainly by the 1970s this was not required by the Traffic Commissioners. Again, an omo driver might do overtime or rest day working as a crew driver, but wouldn't bother to take the conductors badge off.
thanks
 

Whisky Papa

Member
Joined
8 Aug 2019
Messages
726
I guess I'm fairly unusual in having two badges from different traffic areas without having moved home. I have a CC (North West) area one, boasting a six-figure number but using an embossed plastic disc which, as mentioned upthread, the black soon started to come off. This was from when I passed my Class III with Bee Line Buzz Company in April 1987, and funnily enough, I can still remember the number by heart.

In July 1989 I passed my Class I with Yorkshire Rider in Halifax and was issued with a "proper" enamelled metal badge with a BB five-figure number, which I can't now remember - the rules on displaying a badge were changed very soon afterwards and I only bothered wearing it for a short time.

One thing I didn't acquire was a conductor's badge, as the rules on them being issued had changed some time before I started part-time conducting when working in the GMT Schedules Office at Stockport, which I think would have been late 1982.
 

philthetube

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2016
Messages
4,181
Blackpool tram conductors used to have BT green badges, I have no idea whether this was for their own benefit or because it was required, but I think it was after conductors badges being required. I have no idea about drivers.
 

Roger1973

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2020
Messages
856
Location
Berkshire
The website psv badges is probably worth a visit for more. this page details the regional letters, although I'd add that there was (in the 1930 act which established the Traffic Commissioners) a Southern Traffic Area, which was abolished before the 1939 War - I can't recall seeing any J badges (from this area) on the collectors' market but it's fair to assume some must have been issued.

The traffic areas did not exactly match county boundaries, e.g. Chesterfield was in the Yorkshire area and Buxton in the North Western area. (I'm not entirely sure now whether what badge / licence you got issued depended on your home address, depot address, or company's head office address.)

Prior to the 1930 Act, bus drivers and conductors were licensed under hackney carriage law by local authorities - some do appear for sale now and then, along with many post-1930 taxi driver badges being described for sale as bus driver licence badges on the collectors' market.

Also, the T for tram and trolleybus on a PSV style badge was a London thing (elsewhere, local authorities were the licensing authority for tram / trolleybus crews and had their own standards for badges etc, some operators' crews wore individual numbers on their collars like the police used to, others were issued cap badges with an individual number.) The Tramway Badges and Buttons website has a lot more.

Some operators' tram or trolleybus crews (particularly conductors) might also hold PSV licences / badges so they could work buses as well. Blackpool at one time had the concept of 'three badge men' who could drive trams or buses and also had a PSV conductor badge.

Also, my understanding is that the 'NN' badges that are now in circulation (I have only ever seen NN conductor badges in the 122xxx range) were made in error and never officially issued, I have heard a few alternative explanations for their use, although I have never come across any evidence for any of these explanations, and never saw a LT conductor wearing one. Likewise there are theories out there why the Metropolitan Traffic Area badges just got a single N and every other area had the letter repeated but I'm not sure anyone has established a definitive reason for it.

Broadly, PSV conductor licensing (and therefore issue of badges by the traffic commissioners) ended c. 1980 / 1, and PSV driver badges ceased in 1991 as part of the changes from PSV to PCV licensing around that time.

Towards the end of driver badge issues, some drivers got badges from the 'wrong' area - again speculation, but it seems fairly likely that some areas ran out of badges and others had plenty left, and this was the most economical way of dealing with it - a wave of London drivers got 'LL' badges, and the last few badged drivers in the West Midlands area got 'CC' badges.

After conductor licensing ended, some of the operators who still had conductors (or possibly those who were still taking on new conductors) did choose to issue their own badges. London Transport issued green edged conductor badges which may have continued the 'N' number sequence (or may have started again at a chosen 6 digit number) although without a letter (these were only issued to new starters, with existing conductors keeping their N badges.)

Blackpool Transport issued green edged BT 1001+ badges for bus / tram conductors and also blue edged 'MTM 001+' badges to tram 'motormen' - the latter of course including some women by the 1980s. Many of the staff who were bus conductors in winter became tram drivers in summer, and seasonal conductors worked buses as well as trams, with a relatively small number of full time tram drivers.

I'm aware that South Yorkshire PTE issued green edged conductor badges with the SY logo and a 3 or 4 digit number, and I have seen National Bus Companies' conductor badges (Ribble and Devon General are the only ones I can remember seeing examples of, but there may well have been others) which were on a mid blue background (similar to the NBC uniform blue colour.)

After driver badging was discontinued, a wide range of PSV type badges were issued by many operators, some included the traditional red edges but often with a company logo in place of the letters, some kept the badge shape but followed the company's current corporate colours, and there was the strange choice of green edged driver badges by Nottingham and Maidstone and District. Most did not keep it up after the initial issue ran out.

I understand that badges are still issued to drivers on TFL bus services, usually the letters indicate the operator and / or garage, although wearing of these badges in any visible way does not seem to be enforced.
 

philthetube

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2016
Messages
4,181
Prior to the use of drivers badges stopping did Blackpool tram drivers require badges issued by traffic commissioners and if so were they blue?
 

AndyW33

Member
Joined
12 Aug 2013
Messages
541
The traffic areas did not exactly match county boundaries, e.g. Chesterfield was in the Yorkshire area and Buxton in the North Western area. (I'm not entirely sure now whether what badge / licence you got issued depended on your home address, depot address, or company's head office address.)
Definitely not the company's head office address. I worked for Ribble as a management trainee, they had large operations in North West (CC) and Northern (AA) traffic areas and certainly there were plenty of staff with AA badges and very many with CC badges, plus a very few with one of each. Presumably staff based in Skipton had BB badges, but it was a very small depot and I can't remember the details.
 

Roger1973

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2020
Messages
856
Location
Berkshire
Prior to the use of drivers badges stopping did Blackpool tram drivers require badges issued by traffic commissioners and if so were they blue?

No. trams and trolleybuses have never been part of the traffic commissioners' remit, trams come under light railway rather than motor vehicle law, and trolleybuses somewhere between the two (trolleybuses, unlike trams, had to carry registration numbers, but the staff were still licensed locally)

Tramway Badges and Buttons website has more on Blackpool (including the 'MTM' badges referred to above) - the tram badges were issued by the Corporation.

Again, as above, many Blackpool tram drivers did (when PSV badges were still issued) have either PSV driver or conductor licences and badges as well.
 

Titfield

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2013
Messages
3,220
When the issuing of conductor badges was discontinued in the early 1980s the TC's office - cant remember if it was regional or "head" office but think it was head office for the reason below - sold off the remaining stocks of conductors badges. IIRC there was an advert in buses magazine.

I bought about 10 badges for a very reasonable price and have them somewhere in the loft. The reason I think it was the TC Head Office is all the badges have the different 2 letter prefixes.

I seem to recollect reading that conductor licensing was discontinued for a number of reasons: a) very small number of badges being issued b) reduction in bureaucracy c) lack of rationale for such an activity.
 

Maverick1964

New Member
Joined
13 Mar 2021
Messages
1
Location
stockport
I guess I'm fairly unusual in having two badges from different traffic areas without having moved home. I have a CC (North West) area one, boasting a six-figure number but using an embossed plastic disc which, as mentioned upthread, the black soon started to come off. This was from when I passed my Class III with Bee Line Buzz Company in April 1987, and funnily enough, I can still remember the number by heart.

In July 1989 I passed my Class I with Yorkshire Rider in Halifax and was issued with a "proper" enamelled metal badge with a BB five-figure number, which I can't now remember - the rules on displaying a badge were changed very soon afterwards and I only bothered wearing it for a short time.

One thing I didn't acquire was a conductor's badge, as the rules on them being issued had changed some time before I started part-time conducting when working in the GMT Schedules Office at Stockport, which I think would have been late 1982.
Hi I also passed my Class 3 in 1987,with Beeline Buzz Company and was based at Roundthorn Depot. I think the training was carried out at Manchester Transport Training Group in Middleton.
I'm trying to find out what the badge numbers would have been as I passed in April to.

Andy Collins
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Devon Sunset

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2020
Messages
167
Location
East Lothian
Hi I also passed my Class 3 in 1987,with Beeline Buzz Company and was based at Roundthorn Depot. I think the training was carried out at Manchester Transport Training Group in Middleton.
I'm trying to find out what the badge numbers would have been as I passed in April to.

Andy Collins
I passed my class 1 with Eastern Scottish in Edinburgh in September 1988 and got a plastic badge with a 5 figure MM number.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top