Drink Driving

[MostlyHarmless]

A drink drive conviction doesn’t show up on a basic CRB (DBS) check which is asked for once succesful and contract signed, so one could argue that potentially the applicant could still be waiting over a year before starting, thus able to drive and wouldn’t have to disclose.......

I’m not here to judge, he was a **** but I’m sure a lesson learnt....

The disclosure time - i.e the period before the conviction is spent can vary quite a bit. The person I mentioned previously had his for 5 years.

Its a hard lesson to learn for sure

 

[dctraindriver]

The disclosure time - i.e the period before the conviction is spent can vary quite a bit. The person I mentioned previously had his for 5 years.

Its a hard lesson to learn for sure

You may well be right. Just reading up on it, may not be spent for 5 years. And further reading suggests it might remain on a DBS check for 11 years. So many sites say different things. I wouldn’t want to be in his shoes.

 

[GJL9916]

Hopefully not, drink driving is disgusting 'your mate' could of killed someone, what's to say 'your mate' isn't going to turn up to work drunk one day to drive a train full of passengers?

 

[12guard4]

Actually, yes they do. There is a lot more focus on the 'morning after' now because people are being caught the next day (1 in 6 caught the next morning). There is a misconception about how long it takes to sober up and how long it takes to process a single unit. Even the generic rule about 1 unit per hour is really just a guide and is dependent on different factors. There are also misconceptions about how many units are in each glass of alcohol. Where glass sizes and drink strengths have increased over time people were miscounting there units consumed. There are also statistics that show the people who are under the legal limit are still affected by alcohol and cause road accidents but would not be done for drink driving.

There needs to be more education about 'drink driving' I think its very disingenuous to suggest that it is always deliberate. We need to be careful about the circumstances in which it happens.

If you have had a skinful the night before its stupid to think a few hours in bed will clear your system. Again not an accident.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

I would imagine LO will already be aware of this thread and will be busy re-examining their stage 2 applicants to determine the individual.

 

[Set_DRA]

A drink drive conviction doesn’t show up on a basic CRB (DBS) check which is asked for once succesful and contract signed, so one could argue that potentially the applicant could still be waiting over a year before starting, thus able to drive and wouldn’t have to disclose.......

I’m not here to judge, he was a **** but I’m sure a lesson learnt....

If that’s true then he’s faced with the dilemma of....

Does he declare it or not? I believe the law is you have to declare a conviction if asked.

Also GA policy is that once employed (as a driver) any driving conviction must be declared in writing and verbally to the Lead Driver Manager.

 

[dctraindriver]

If that’s true then he’s faced with the dilemma of....

Does he declare it or not? I believe the law is you have to declare a conviction if asked.

Also GA policy is that once employed (as a driver) any driving conviction must be declared in writing and verbally to the Lead Driver Manager.

Agree. It’s too risky not to declare it.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I would hope that the TOC would apply the same logic to ALL driving convictions. Driving while tired or under stress can in many instances be more dangerous than driving under the influence of alcohol.

 

[AM9]

I would hope that the TOC would apply the same logic to ALL driving convictions. Driving while tired or under stress can in many instances be more dangerous than driving under the influence of alcohol.

Is that a fact, (with a link to a source that we can verify it's credibility) or a 'TL' fact?

 

[DanDaDriver]

Driving while tired or under stress...

Well that’s 95% of the Railway sacked.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I would hope that the TOC would apply the same logic to ALL driving convictions. Driving while tired or under stress can in many instances be more dangerous than driving under the influence of alcohol.

I'm not sure they are comparable - driving whilst under the influence is a specific offence to target a deliberate action on behalf of the driver. Tiredness and stress can cause accidents of course but it's not the same as going the pub, getting hammered and driving home.

And should a train company treat a minor speeding offence the same as drink driving? Would seem very harsh to me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Driving while tired and driving under the influence are two continuums. Obviously one of them is quantifiable using alcohol and drug testing, so is firmly illegal. But realistically, someone who's had two pints of strong lager and as such is just a little over is probably not as dangerous as someone who has been up all night with no sleep. Whereas if the tired person had just had perhaps 5hrs that night rather than their usual 7 they are probably less risk than the mild drinker[1]. But someone who has had 10 pints and got behind the wheel is clearly a greater risk than any of them.

Ideally, both would be illegal - but there is just no way (yet) to prove it - even applying tachographs to cars (which might not on a simplified level be an utterly awful idea - it would at least stop people who think driving long distances without a break is OK - and I would *definitely* support applying it to taxis) wouldn't deal with what you were doing while you were not driving.

[1] But don't underestimate the buildup you can get from 5 nights of being about 2 hours short...as I've posted before I did a daily 1.5hr car commute for a bit...until I nearly caused an accident, caused entirely by going "autopilot" due to amassed sleep deficit, and so switched to the train despite it taking an hour longer and costing twice as much.

 

[SignallerJohn]

I would hope that the TOC would apply the same logic to ALL driving convictions. Driving while tired or under stress can in many instances be more dangerous than driving under the influence of alcohol.

I can’t wait to hear your explanation for this outlandish comment.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

This is really about what in law is known as mens rea- 'the mental element of a person's intention to commit a crime; or knowledge that one's action or lack of action would cause a crime to be committed' In this case having a drink and driving knowing that it is criminal offence as well as it being incredibly reckless; so if you choose to do it then some might see it as a lack of concern for the safety of yourself and others (as well as disregard for the law) which I'm pretty sure isn't what TOC's want from their drivers.

Having said all of that, people do learn from their mistakes and should be given a 2nd chance which is why you don't need to disclose it once the conviction is spent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can’t wait to hear your explanation for this outlandish comment.

It's not in the remotest bit outlandish and I have explained it in post #42 directly above yours.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Is that a fact, (with a link to a source that we can verify it's credibility) or a 'TL' fact?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep-deprived_driving

Millions are spent every year on campaigns combating drink driving with a degree of success however far less is spent on preventing tired drivers from taking the wheel apart from a few signs now and then on the motorway. A conviction for such an offence should really be on a par with drink driving as it's effects can be just as devastating. There is another aspect any potential shift working drivers need to take into consideration before applying for the job which is that of managing sleep patterns to avoid fatigue.

 

[AM9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep-deprived_driving

Lots of 'can's, 'might's and 'could's. Ironically, the British researchers maintained that tiredness after 17-18 hours equates to the EU limit of alcohol in blood in law, (0.05%), conveniently ignoring that English and NI drivers are considered safe to drive with 60% more alcohol in their blood, (maybe they have a physiological difference that makes them safer ).
The overall fact is that driving with (any) alcohol in the blood is a deliberate act and nobody can claim a need to do it. Driving whilst tired is not a good idea, but may be difficult to avoid in some cases. Maybe the UK should adopt the requirement for GPs to report those patients who do take that risk on a regular basis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Driving whilst tired is not a good idea, but may be difficult to avoid in some cases. Maybe the UK should adopt the requirement for GPs to report those patients who do take that risk on a regular basis.

Not sure why a GP would have any idea that I'd stayed up a bit late last night before getting up at 7am for work.

OK, things like sleep apnoea - but they are already reportable, aren't they, and do already result in a ban until a proper treatment regime is in place, don't they?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I can’t wait to hear your explanation for this outlandish comment.

Lots of 'can's, 'might's and 'could's. Ironically, the British researchers maintained that tiredness after 17-18 hours equates to the EU limit of alcohol in blood in law, (0.05%), conveniently ignoring that English and NI drivers are considered safe to drive with 60% more alcohol in their blood, (maybe they have a physiological difference that makes them safer ).
The overall fact is that driving with (any) alcohol in the blood is a deliberate act and nobody can claim a need to do it. Driving whilst tired is not a good idea, but may be difficult to avoid in some cases. Maybe the UK should adopt the requirement for GPs to report those patients who do take that risk on a regular basis.

Driving while knowing you are overly tired, continuing after nodding off at the wheel is a deliberate act. It is placing the safety of those around you at risk because you 'have to be somewhere'. Anyone who has been overly tired while driving knows it - it just doesn't have the stigma of drink driving yet it's outcome can be just as lethal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Driving while knowing you are overly tired, continuing after nodding off at the wheel is a deliberate act. It is placing the safety of those around you at risk because you 'have to be somewhere'. Anyone who has been overly tired while driving knows it - it just doesn't have the stigma of drink driving yet it's outcome can be just as lethal.

Quite.

I am quite confident that the only reason there is not an equivalent law to drink driving and a roadside test is that one is not practical.

 

[AM9]

Driving while knowing you are overly tired, continuing after nodding off at the wheel is a deliberate act. It is placing the safety of those around you at risk because you 'have to be somewhere'. Anyone who has been overly tired while driving knows it - it just doesn't have the stigma of drink driving yet it's outcome can be just as lethal.

Driving whilst having excess alcohol in the blood has a social stigma (and rightly so) because consumption of alcohol is a deliberate act and is totally unnecessary. Those wishing to drive, or are aware of a need to drive, have no excuse for ignoring that and should be punished and stigmatised approriately which isn't the case in so many instances. There are still the arrogant drinkers around who regard getting caught with excess alcohol in their blood whilst driving as 'bad luck'.

 

[Fearless]

I would hope that the TOC would apply the same logic to ALL driving convictions. Driving while tired or under stress can in many instances be more dangerous than driving under the influence of alcohol.

And driving with low blood sugar, such as people who skip breakfast and then drive through the morning rush hour. Many of the accidents at that time have hypoglycaemia as a cause as it can affect concentration, memory and response time (I remember reading this in a newspaper but can't find a source for it right now). But here's a study that outlines the effects:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/07/130730101715.htm

 

[Bletchleyite]

Driving whilst having excess alcohol in the blood has a social stigma (and rightly so) because consumption of alcohol is a deliberate act and is totally unnecessary. Those wishing to drive, or are aware of a need to drive, have no excuse for ignoring that and should be punished and stigmatised approriately which isn't the case in so many instances. There are still the arrogant drinkers around who regard getting caught with excess alcohol in their blood whilst driving as 'bad luck'.

I agree. I don't think anyone is saying that it is OK.

What they are saying is that driving when really tired (I'm not talking about a busy day at work) is equally not OK, it is a social stigma that we need to build, just like we built the one about driving drunk.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

I agree. I don't think anyone is saying that it is OK.

What they are saying is that driving when really tired (I'm not talking about a busy day at work) is equally not OK, it is a social stigma that we need to build, just like we built the one about driving drunk.

Agreed. The problem is that 'tiredness' is not quantifiable in the same way as drink driving is and can be pernicious in that you may start off feeling fine when you start your journey up the M6, but the monotony can start to affect concentration and so on. There are laws that can be used - driving without due care and attention for example, but quite often this only happens after an accident has happened.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. The problem is that 'tiredness' is not quantifiable in the same way as drink driving is and can be pernicious in that you may start off feeling fine when you start your journey up the M6, but the monotony can start to affect concentration and so on. There are laws that can be used - driving without due care and attention for example, but quite often this only happens after an accident has happened.

Yes, I agree. If there was a way to quantify tiredness using an electronic device as there is to quantify blood/breath alcohol levels, I'm certain there would be a limit.

As I mentioned tachographs do go some way towards solving this, but they only work for people whose main task is driving, as they don't stop you, for instance, going out on the lash on Friday until 4am, getting up at 6am, spending the day doing heavy digging work in the garden to clear off the hangover then driving 200 miles at 10pm, because there is no realistic way for them to take into account those other activities despite the fact that someone who has done the above will not be fit to drive 2 miles to the tip, let along 200, at the end of it.

I do as I said however advocate the idea of applying tachographs and "EU rules" to taxi and private hire drivers, though, having seen some incredibly irresponsible acts by taxi drivers, such as the usual practice[1] in MK of doing the night shift then a 5am Luton airport run as the last job, during which drivers are often veering all over the road due to falling asleep. I gave up using taxis for that journey and drove myself in the end, as at least I could control that I had gone to bed a bit early to ensure I was safe, but was not a fan of sharing the road with those who self-evidently weren't.

[1] Allegedly it's against the rules of at least one of the companies, but they do nothing to enforce it. An advantage of a pure app-based system without manual intervention like Uber is that they could enforce it by refusing to provide too much work - but they aren't going to do that unless the law levels the playing field by requiring it.

 

[Set_DRA]

As per reply 11

“Don’t drink and drive kids. Not cool.”

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. The problem is that 'tiredness' is not quantifiable in the same way as drink driving is and can be pernicious in that you may start off feeling fine when you start your journey up the M6, but the monotony can start to affect concentration and so on. There are laws that can be used - driving without due care and attention for example, but quite often this only happens after an accident has happened.

One thing that doesn't help is motorway services charging for parking beyond 2 hours, discouraging stopping for a decent kip when "caught out". This is absolutely disgraceful and needs to be made illegal.

 

[43096]

It’s a shame he’s an idiot, really

Edited for accuracy...

 

[MostlyHarmless]

One thing that doesn't help is motorway services charging for parking beyond 2 hours, discouraging stopping for a decent kip when "caught out". This is absolutely disgraceful and needs to be made illegal.

Yep - I mean who would want to park for hours in a service area other than to rest? I think the Competition and Markets Authority are looking into MSAs and hopefully they will address some of these issues including the outrageous fuel prices.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yep - I mean who would want to park for hours in a service area other than to rest? I think the Competition and Markets Authority are looking into MSAs and hopefully they will address some of these issues including the outrageous fuel prices.

Well, there have been cases where I'd want to park there all day to work on their wifi (I instead played hopscotch down the motorway 2 hours at a time to avoid the fee), but in that case I was buying drinks all day so profitable anyway.