'Drawing up' - assuming this is no longer practiced, when was the last train to 'draw up'?

[70014IronDuke]

Old timers may well remember the times when a train would pull into a station which did not have long enough platforms to accommodate the train. The train would stop for the leading coaches, exchange passengers, and then be waved off by the guard to bring the remaining carriages into the platform for passengers in rear coaches to alight. A minute or two later, the guard would give the final 'right away' and off the train would go.

I'm sure I remember this happening at Bletchley in steam days with an up Holyhead express, usually hauled by a Brit or Scot in the very early 60s. I think I remember seeing it at either Settle, or Appleby, or both on Class 45-hauled Class 1 trains back in the v early 70s.

But that's by the by. Assuming it's not allowed on today's railway (I certainly get this impression from all the talk about restrictions on lengths of train without SDO) when was it written out of the rule book and what was the last train to ever 'draw up' on the system? Anyone know? And were there objections to the new order?

 

[D6130]

Used the happen at Settle - where I witnessed it in the Summer of 1975 - but the platforms at Appleby are much longer and it may not have been necessary there. I seem to remember it happening a few times on the West Highland line....but I think that was more to facilitate crossing another train when the first train to arrive was too long for the loop. @Cheshire Scot may be able to confirm or deny.

 

[181]

It still happened in the 1980s -- I remember it being done to enable my family to get our bicycles out of the guard's van at Feniton in 1985 and/or 1986, and at Manningtree in 1989.

 

[D6130]

Come to think of it, I remember seeing it happening with loco-hauled trains in Ireland in the 'eighties and 'nineties. Castlebar is one of the stations that comes to mind.

 

[Taunton]

I think drawing up disappeared with the end of slam doors, and the inability to only open part of a train's power doors at a time.

My last actual experience was of all things on a Euston to Manchester service some time in the 1990s. One Saturday morning, I can't imagine why the formation had been made so lengthy but at a couple of stops announcements were made and we did indeed stop twice.

Different on the Southern, even in those times; I recall going down the Mid Sussex stopping all stations on a 12-car. There was maybe an announcement at East Croydon, not relevant to me so ignored, we stopped seemingly in the country, restarted, and being seated at the back found we had just been off the platform at places like Billingshurst. Did VEPs even have a PA?

 

[Dr Hoo]

It still happened in the 1980s -- I remember it being done to enable my family to get our bicycles out of the guard's van at Feniton in 1985 and/or 1986, and at Manningtree in 1989.

Quite. With brake vehicles typically being at the back of trains and used for wheelchair passengers, parcels, bikes and mail it was essential that they were platformed.

 

[181]

Quite. With brake vehicles typically being at the back of trains and used for wheelchair passengers, parcels, bikes and mail it was essential that they were platformed.

Indeed. On the Waterloo-Exeter trains my recollection is that the brake vehicle(s) was/were usually somewhere near the middle, but the platform at Feniton was I think very short. At Manningtree, the guard tried to persuade us to lift our bikes down onto the ballast, which I presume was not in strict accordance with the rules even back then, but he agreed to get the train drawn forward when my father pointed out that the bikes were heavily laden with panniers.

Did VEPs even have a PA?

I'm not certain, but I seem to remember that they did in their latter years after the refurbishment in which the guard's van was reduced in size, but not before that.

 

[Gloster]

Indeed. On the Waterloo-Exeter trains my recollection is that the brake vehicle(s) was/were usually somewhere near the middle, but the platform at Feniton was I think very short.

Correct. The formation in the late 1970s and early 1980s was eight with the two brakes fourth and fifth. Until 1980 they were both Mark I BSK (Brake Second Corridor), but with the change to early Mark IIs they became BFK (Brake First Corridor). I think that Whimple and possibly Tisbury were also a bit on the short side.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Drawing-up was quite common on the GW main-line in Devon and Cornwall back in the day with lengthy loco-hauled holiday expresses - Totnes and Liskeard being particularly short, with panicking passengers afraid they might not be able to alight and causing further delays. In the HST era the remaining XC loco-hauled services were much shorter and there was a programme of platform extensions too.

 

[MadMac]

There was a buzzer/bell code (6) for this on multiple units.

 

[Gaelan]

Overseas, Amtrak still regularly stops twice at small stations on their cross-country services. I think they open one door each time? I’ll defer to others who know better.

 

[The exile]

Quite. With brake vehicles typically being at the back of trains and used for wheelchair passengers, parcels, bikes and mail it was essential that they were platformed.

My most recent memories in this country are on the West Highland in the 1980s and at Earley in the early 1990s (non through-gangwayed units with a bike in the wrong van on the last train).

 

[norbitonflyer]

How does the Caley sleeper manage at Watford Junction. The train has different portions and they can't both be in the platform at the same time

 

[stadler]

There was a buzzer/bell code (6) for this on multiple units.

That buzzer code still exists. It is still used occassionally nowadays. I saw a guard use it last year when the driver stopped in the wrong position (they thought they had a 4 car when it was actually an 8 car) so the guard contacted the driver and then gave six on the buzzer and the driver moved forward to the correct stopping point.

 

[Sheridan]

I have seen it done once maybe 3-4 years ago when a 4-car 158 stopped at Llanfairpwll heading towards Holyhead. Normally of course the guard gets all the passengers from the rear of the train to come with them to the end of the front coach for local door operation. But in this case there was a person with a bike in the back who had no chance of walking through with it so the guard let the other passengers off in the normal way, closed the door and buzzed the driver to draw forward, and then buzzed them again to stop. Good customer service really!

 

[Starmill]

LNER used to do it with HSTs, although it was very rare, say for loading multiple bicycles at short platform stations.

 

[Tester]

How does the Caley sleeper manage at Watford Junction. The train has different portions and they can't both be in the platform at the same time

Whilst not all carriages fit, you can get into all parts and walk through - the staff are very organised.

 

[ac6000cw]

Overseas, Amtrak still regularly stops twice at small stations on their cross-country services. I think they open one door each time? I’ll defer to others who know better.

I've seen Amtrak long-distance train do three stops i.e. two draw-up's at a small station (a westbound 'Empire Builder' train at Columbus, WI) - IIRC the whole stop took 10-15 minutes...

 

[norbitonflyer]

Whilst not all carriages fit, you can get into all parts and walk through - the staff are very organised.

(Caledonian Sleeper) Could nevertheless be necessary if a wheelchair user needs to board at Watford Junction, or conceivably someone with a bike that needs stowing in the right carriage

 

[eastwestdivide]

I think I recall some drawing up somewhere between St Pancras-Leicester back in around 1980. Would that be right? Maybe on the Derby stopper (9 Mk1s) at somewhere like St Albans or Market Harborough??

 

[Taunton]

I've seen Amtrak long-distance train do three stops i.e. two draw-up's at a small station (a westbound 'Empire Builder' train at Columbus, WI) - IIRC the whole stop took 10-15 minutes...

This is some recent innovation. Classically USA long distance trains are formed baggage/mail car at the front, then the coaches, diners in the middle, sleepers at the back. Normally it was only the baggage car and coaches which had any trade at minor points, for the occasional sleeper passenger there the sleeper porter would walk the passenger and their bags through the train to and from the platformed part. But it's somehow changed.

 

[AlterEgo]

Overseas, Amtrak still regularly stops twice at small stations on their cross-country services. I think they open one door each time? I’ll defer to others who know better.

That's correct, generally one stop for coach and one stop for the sleepers (which are normally at the rear)

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think I recall some drawing up somewhere between St Pancras-Leicester back in around 1980. Would that be right? Maybe on the Derby stopper (9 Mk1s) at somewhere like St Albans or Market Harborough??

I think Mkt Harboro' had shortish platforms, not St Albans. I can't ever remember drawing up there though. It was usually the semi-fasts, and they usually only had 7 or 8 on.

There was a buzzer/bell code (6) for this on multiple units.

That's interesting to know. But it also raises the question, how was drawing up conveyed to the driver on normal LH stock?

As I wrote originally, the main time I remember watching it was at Bletchley c 1961. I saw it more than once, when an up train from Holyhead (It might have been the Emerald Isle Express - I'm sure it was a named train) had 13 or 14 on I should think, and that was an every day experience. Was it stated as such in the WTT, or was there a procedure that had to be performed - presumably by the guard - every time?

And what happened with a special, or especially strangthened train? Was there some sort of 'drawing-up right away' signal from the guard?

Fascinating thread though. Thanks for all the comments.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's interesting to know. But it also raises the question, how was drawing up conveyed to the driver on normal LH stock?

I've seen it done on the Wensleydale to bring the van onto the tiny platform at Finghall Lane so a wheelchair user could board, I seem to recall the train stopped as normal then the guard stood on the platform and made a sort of circular motion with his raised hand to indicate to the driver to slowly move forward and then stopped that when the van was on the platform.

 

[eastwestdivide]

I think Mkt Harboro' had shortish platforms, not St Albans. I can't ever remember drawing up there though. It was usually the semi-fasts, and they usually only had 7 or 8 on.

The trains I’m thinking of (StP/Derby stoppers) were definitely 9 Mk1s, but the guard’s vans were generally coaches 2, 5 and 8. I could be misremembering the drawing up. Might try and find some notebooks.

 

[Richard Scott]

Overseas, Amtrak still regularly stops twice at small stations on their cross-country services. I think they open one door each time? I’ll defer to others who know better.

Certainly happened in Australia when I was there earlier in the year. Seem to recall Cairns to Brisbane train doing it at one or two stops.

 

[DelW]

This is some recent innovation. Classically USA long distance trains are formed baggage/mail car at the front, then the coaches, diners in the middle, sleepers at the back. Normally it was only the baggage car and coaches which had any trade at minor points, for the occasional sleeper passenger there the sleeper porter would walk the passenger and their bags through the train to and from the platformed part. But it's somehow changed.

That's correct, generally one stop for coach and one stop for the sleepers (which are normally at the rear)

That doesn't seem to be current practice. The South West Chief (Chicago <> Los Angeles) is generally: engines - baggage car - transition/dormitory - 2 x sleepers - diner - gallery lounge - 2 or 3 x coaches (seated). All except the baggage car are bi-level Superliners, so the transition/dorm has a low level corridor connection to the baggage car at one end, and the normal high level Superliner corridor connection to the sleepers at the other. I think that the California Zephyr (Chicage <> Oakland) runs a similar consist. If there are both sleeper and coach passengers using a station with a short platform, the Chief does usually make two stops, one for sleepers and one for coach. Stop positions and drawing forward are controlled by a conductor talking to the engineer (driver) by radio.

 

[EbbwJunction1]

If it's the same thing, two DMUs at Cardiff Central used to be joined together in the platform.

Each DMU would have arrived from a separate place and would be joined together to form one train for somewhere else. I've seen it happen on both the Valley Lines and the main lines,

 

[edwin_m]

If it's the same thing, two DMUs at Cardiff Central used to be joined together in the platform.

Each DMU would have arrived from a separate place and would be joined together to form one train for somewhere else. I've seen it happen on both the Valley Lines and the main lines,

It's not the same thing. It's reasonably common for trains to uncouple and couple in the platforms at many places, and even more common for two trains to be at the same platform without coupling or uncoupling. Drawing up is when a long train stops twice (or more) in a shorter platform so people can board/alight over its whole length.

 

[AY1975]

Whilst not all carriages fit, you can get into all parts and walk through - the staff are very organised.

Yes, and presumably the Caley Sleeper stock has selective door opening, which I suppose largely eliminates the need to "draw up".

If it's the same thing, two DMUs at Cardiff Central used to be joined together in the platform.

Each DMU would have arrived from a separate place and would be joined together to form one train for somewhere else. I've seen it happen on both the Valley Lines and the main lines,

That's not "drawing up", that's portion working.

I would guess that "drawing up" might still occasionally happen with charter trains that call, start or terminate at stations with too short a platform to accommodate the entire train at one time, or at least it might have still been practised with charter trains for some years after it stopped being a regular occurrence with normal service trains.