Draconian railway laws

[island]

I know why the TOCs abandoned the idea- cost- but there really was something to be said for the Permit to Travel scheme.

Permits to Travel still exist.

If they abandoned the plethora of small print and simply had something like: FCC BUY BEFORE YOU BOARD, VIRGIN CAN BUY ON BOARD or something it could be cleared up.

This is in place to an extent at Kings Cross and Euston.

 

[Tetchytyke]

These kind of examples are often quoted on forums like this but completely irrelevant to the vast majority of passengers.

People who live in Burnley, for example, catch the train from Burnley. They have never heard of Grand Central, never mind what their conditions or carriage are, and are extremely unlikely to start a journey on the SWT or EMT network. Therefore just because different TOCs have different policies is of no relevance to their journey.

People who live in Burnley catch the train from Burnley, but the rules change depend on which of the three Burnley stations you board at. Get on at Central without a ticket and you'll be prosecuted, but get on at Barracks half a mile down the road and you can buy whatever you want.

And passengers will fall foul of the laws when they do a slightly different journey to normal.

Kings Cross and Euston have started to highlight the ticket restrictions, e.g. "Tickets marked VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY are not valid on this train", but those stations (being barriered) aren't the real problem.

 

[LateThanNever]

These kind of examples are often quoted on forums like this but completely irrelevant to the vast majority of passengers
People who live in Burnley, for example, catch the train from Burnley. They have never heard of Grand Central, never mind what their conditions or carriage are, and are extremely unlikely to start a journey on the SWT or EMT network. Therefore just because different TOCs have different policies is of no relevance to their journey.

People who live in Burnley catch the train from Burnley, but the rules change depend on which of the three Burnley stations you board at. Get on at Central without a ticket and you'll be prosecuted, but get on at Barracks half a mile down the road and you can buy whatever you want.

And passengers will fall foul of the laws when they do a slightly different journey to normal.

Kings Cross and Euston have started to highlight the ticket restrictions, e.g. "Tickets marked VIRGIN TRAINS ONLY are not valid on this train", but those stations (being barriered) aren't the real problem.

Grateful for your specifics Arctic Troll but, Bertie the Bus, the railway's reason for existence is travel!
My local station on the NATIONAL railway network has been pay on the train for ever - well, at least the last 30 years - so if I find myself travelling 'up country' why should I be acquainted with different local rules? It is just an illogical notion - no consistency and with haphazard enforcement, as an additional obstacle!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There has been a lot of complaining on here based on the presumption that difference is a fault. I disagree.

. . . . . why should I be acquainted with different local rules? It is just an illogical notion - no consistency and with haphazard enforcement, as an additional obstacle!

I like differences. I welcome the fact that people drive on one side of the road in some places and the opposite elsewhere, that they use terms of endearment in one town that are insults 100 miles away, that they wear different clothes, worship on different days, speak different languages and measure things in different units. I also resent travelling long distances only to find the same global products to eat, wear and use.

So now that London busses don't accept cash, do we expect all towns and cities to conform to the English capital's ticketing? Of course not, and I'm sure the good people of Burnley are no strangers to, er, strangers, and their strange ways.

I do think people on here look for problems where none exist, but where those who like to find fault with others (after having made an error themselves) have a field day spotting inconsistencies and describing them as if they are part of some sinister scheme to turn us all into their victims. Odd as it may seem, I have no difficulty in playing by the rules. Wherever I am.

 

[Jonny]

The Penalty Fares scheme is supposed to just that - give the benefit of the doubt - however the fact that not every TOC operates a PF scheme, and the negative connotation of it being a Penalty Fare causes people not to see it as such.

Bus companies call it a "standard fare" - set well above anything that could be incurred by paying cash at commencement. Let's just say that it's often a lot more than a PCN. Perhaps PF-issuing TOCs could use the same term?

 

[TheHoff]

Hi all,

Seeing as i was mentioned earlier in this thread I would just like to point out that I used to be a season ticket holder before my encounter with SWT staff in March. Unfortunately due to a ridiculous amount of disruption on the Alton line in October/November (which almost lost me my job) I ended up having to change my working hours and take a 2 hour bus ride each way from Winchester to Aldershot.

The reason I decided to take the train that week was so I could potentially arrive work 30 minutes earlier to prepare a presentation. I am not a fare dodger and always purchase a ticket prior to travelling. The tightness of my schedule that week meant if I missed the train by waiting at the ticket machines I would have lost the time I tried to gain. I misguidedly believed that I would be ok buying a ticket on the train as I had done this several times previously. I had also paid in the ticket office at the end of my journey several times without being warned.

It has cost me a ridiculous amount of money and a written warning to sort my situation out. I feel a clearer and more consistent approach from the railway company could have prevented such a situation from being realized. However from my brief time in the magistrates court and having just witnessed the overwhelming number of people being castigated for the most miniscule oversight it is hard to think of the current situation as being anything more than a revenue generating exercise for the companies involved!

 

[LateThanNever]

There has been a lot of complaining on here based on the presumption that difference is a fault. I disagree.I like differences. I welcome the fact that people drive on one side of the road in some places and the opposite elsewhere, that they use terms of endearment in one town that are insults 100 miles away, that they wear different clothes, worship on different days, speak different languages and measure things in different units. I also resent travelling long distances only to find the same global products to eat, wear and use.

So now that London busses don't accept cash, do we expect all towns and cities to conform to the English capital's ticketing? Of course not, and I'm sure the good people of Burnley are no strangers to, er, strangers, and their strange ways.

I do think people on here look for problems where none exist, but where those who like to find fault with others (after having made an error themselves) have a field day spotting inconsistencies and describing them as if they are part of some sinister scheme to turn us all into their victims. Odd as it may seem, I have no difficulty in playing by the rules. Wherever I am.

I must try speaking a different language next time my ticket is queried - I'm sure the inspector will welcome the difference!

Anyway the liking of differences is irrelevant - the question is rather do you like getting nicked for being ignorant of the differences? That's the bit you need to really like.
The railway often seems to act as though their passengers imbibe the ticketing regulations with mother's milk. Most people are blissfully ignorant of them and having them enforced by companies who are ultimately based abroad or bus companies who expanded in underhand ways does not endear them to the railway passenger or promote confidence in a just settlement.
More particularly when there is generally no proper appeal system- or perhaps one dressed up as something it isn't - this is certainly sinister. If the railway companies think we are looking for problems where none exist perhaps they could try to be a bit more open and transparent (refraining from acting as both prosecutor and judge would be a lovely start). Of course they'll probably say that nothing can change as they are thrusting competing, commercial enterprises. In which case the thrusting commercial law is for them - not the criminal law.

And, by the way, if I board a number 15 London bus do I get prosecuted because I try to pay the conductor in cash?

 

[Flamingo]

As I say regularly, but will say again, the VAST majority of people I sell tickets to would be described as "Pay when challenged". They will have come from a manned station, with a booking office as well as a TVM, but an unbarriered station or platform. They will deny knowing they had to buy a ticket, despite walking past posters in most stations saying "Buy before you board". They will not be paying with RTV's, postal orders, or those plastic things from the local council nobody ever knows how to process. They will frequently have a card that comes up "Declined" and will then say "It never works on-train". When asked why they didn't buy before boarding nine times out of ten they will say "I was running late", regardless of where or how frequent the train is, or how long before departure they boarded.

I sell a few hundred tickets to these people every month. Pretty much every one of them is in breach of Railway Bylaws, but manages to suffer no consequences. They still get their Super-Off-Peak with railcard discount because the "money-grabbing TOC who threatens prosecution as a mechanism to extract extortionate out-of-court settlements" who employes me will have my ass if I try to sell them a full open and the passenger complains or kicks off.

I'd love to know which TOC it is that is trying to catch passengers out with unfair underhand ticketing. I'd consider working for them. In my experience, there are many many more passengers knowingly playing the system, and TOC's tolerate them as the whole system is geared up to these peoples "Rights" under the guise of "Customer Service" than in making them pay for the service they are receiving.

 

[Yew]

And, by the way, if I board a number 15 London bus do I get prosecuted because I try to pay the conductor in cash?

Interesting question, especially on a conductor service like the Heritage Routemaster routes, where a conductor comes around after travel has commenced, as cash is legal tender for all debts, such as that ensued by joining the bus intending to pay with it...