Down the tube? How far has the tube come since 1997?

[a729]

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA5rTxidF2c

The trains are still packed at peaks. Victoria platforms-especially the Victoria line ones are much too small- even when the multi million investment in the station is complete!

Admittedly there have been some improvements but fares have increased a lot too!

 

[user15681]

I think London Underground (and undoubtedly London Overground if I can include that too) have come a long way since 1997. Huge stock improvements, line upgrades and associated improvements, capacity increases at large stations and on stock, network improvements etc.

I commute on the Victoria line every day, so I can only speak for that line, but I can only think of 2 times when I've been delayed since last October, which I think is impressive. Not forgetting the increase in trains per hour during the peak too. That, along with the modern stock which feels brighter, more airy, more spacious and faster than the 67, makes me have no doubt the Victoria line has come on leaps and bounds. Yes there are still problems, mainly capacity and fares now, but I'd be living in fairy land if I thought it was possible to reduce the crowding during the peak.

And of course, who can forget the "We've cut delays by 40%.... whoosh!"

 

[SS4]

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA5rTxidF2c

The trains are still packed at peaks. Victoria platforms-especially the Victoria line ones are much too small- even when the multi million investment in the station is complete!

Admittedly there have been some improvements but fares have increased a lot too!

Hasn't the tube grown from 3m people per day to 4m per day in the same period though?

 

[Domh245]

Widening tube platform would be nigh-on impossible! You would need to keep the central circulating area the same, so you would need to realign the track, which would require a lot of expensive digging and a lot (like 2 months at a time) of line closures. The current situation isn't brilliant, but improving it is practically impossible, hence the investments such as faster trains and more frequent trains, to shift people off of the platforms quicker. However if everyone still chooses to travel at the same time, there will inevitably be a mass overcrowding!

(on a side note, is the chap at the begging of that linked video a younger David Waboso? ~30 seconds)

 

[user15681]

Widening tube platform would be nigh-on impossible! You would need to keep the central circulating area the same, so you would need to realign the track, which would require a lot of expensive digging and a lot (like 2 months at a time) of line closures. The current situation isn't brilliant, but improving it is practically impossible, hence the investments such as faster trains and more frequent trains, to shift people off of the platforms quicker. However if everyone still chooses to travel at the same time, there will inevitably be a mass overcrowding!

(on a side note, is the chap at the begging of that linked video a younger David Waboso? ~30 seconds)

Yup, the current method of dealing with it at Victoria is to just pull the gates across or stop people at the barriers. Works well, only adds a couple of minutes to journeys.

P.s no I'm fairly certain it's not David Waboso. He worked on infrastructure and engineering during the 1990s, particularly the Jubilee-line extension and DLR.

 

[a729]

Widening tube platform would be nigh-on impossible! You would need to keep the central circulating area the same, so you would need to realign the track, which would require a lot of expensive digging and a lot (like 2 months at a time) of line closures. The current situation isn't brilliant, but improving it is practically impossible, hence the investments such as faster trains and more frequent trains, to shift people off of the platforms quicker. However if everyone still chooses to travel at the same time, there will inevitably be a mass overcrowding!

(on a side note, is the chap at the begging of that linked video a younger David Waboso? ~30 seconds)

To be fair the Northern Bank platforms will be extended. Angel station has had it's platforms extended as well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hasn't the tube grown from 3m people per day to 4m per day in the same period though?

However the tube network hasn't really expanded-i.e not many new lines .

Crossrail should have been built at least by 2000! Crossrail 2 also should have been built already!

 

[simple simon]

corrected link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA5rTxidF2c

I dont know why people really expect any improvements. Maybe when / if crossrail and crossrail 2 finally open then things will improve, for a few years / until they too are full!

Simon

 

[fowler9]

corrected link...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA5rTxidF2c

I dont know why people really expect any improvements. Maybe when / if crossrail and crossrail 2 finally open then things will improve, for a few years / until they too are full!

Simon

Yeah, until people change where and when they work the infrastructure in London is constantly going to be playing catch up. Sadly many people have no choice where and when they work. There doesn't seem much appetite for change for some reason though. For every company like mine in Liverpool with people working there living an easily walkable distance from the office there are a thousand in central London who's employees can't afford to live nearby. I think the London Underground does an amazing job. I love visiting mates down there and travelling on it, I couldn't live there though.Ha ha.

 

[Mojo]

(on a side note, is the chap at the begging of that linked video a younger David Waboso? ~30 seconds)

P.s no I'm fairly certain it's not David Waboso. He worked on infrastructure and engineering during the 1990s, particularly the Jubilee-line extension and DLR.

The caption says it is Wilben Short.

 

[SS4]

However the tube network hasn't really expanded-i.e not many new lines .

Crossrail should have been built at least by 2000! Crossrail 2 also should have been built already!

I concur on both points, I was trying to suggest that if the overcrowding is much the same as it was in 1997 then improvements have been made albeit poorly futureproofed. Crossrail and Crossrail 2 are the best solution short of moving some of the economy outside of Greater London

 

[a729]

Yup, the current method of dealing with it at Victoria is to just pull the gates across or stop people at the barriers. Works well, only adds a couple of minutes to journeys.

That's no way to run London's busiest underground station!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I concur on both points, I was trying to suggest that if the overcrowding is much the same as it was in 1997 then improvements have been made albeit poorly futureproofed. Crossrail and Crossrail 2 are the best solution short of moving some of the economy outside of Greater London

Interestingly it's been said that Crossrail will be 'full' by the time it's opened!

 

[rebmcr]

To be fair the Northern Bank platforms will be extended.

At great effort, involving closing the lines for a decent amount of time (although less than anticipated given the planned novel method of construction).

 

[a729]

At great effort, involving closing the lines for a decent amount of time (although less than anticipated given the planned novel method of construction).

Yes but it is worth it- the Bank platforms aren't as well used as Victoria's Victoria line ones are!
Albeit Bank is a thoroughfare to Monument for the C&D lines and the presence of 2 siding south of Victoria station might significantly complicate things

 

[joeykins82]

Victoria station is currently being upgraded with a new entrance and ticket hall due to open in 2016, and the existing ticket hall to be more than doubled in size from 2018. It's hoped that the capacity improvements that'll come from providing extra routes out of and through the station (and between the lines) should mean that entrances won't have to be closed.

TfL know where the pinch points are and are addressing them as fast as they realistically can: after Victoria comes Bank (Northern Line), Holborn and Camden Town station upgrades.

As for the line upgrades, the underground is a victim of its own success. The extra capacity gets used up as it's added because people who'd been put off travelling by tube because of the crush loadings and unreliability go back to using it when it gets new trains, more reliable signalling and service frequency enhancements. The Victoria Line is a perfect example of this!

 

[a729]

Victoria station is currently being upgraded with a new entrance and ticket hall due to open in 2016, and the existing ticket hall to be more than doubled in size from 2018. It's hoped that the capacity improvements that'll come from providing extra routes out of and through the station (and between the lines) should mean that entrances won't have to be closed.

TfL know where the pinch points are and are addressing them as fast as they realistically can: after Victoria comes Bank (Northern Line), Holborn and Camden Town station upgrades.

As for the line upgrades, the underground is a victim of its own success. The extra capacity gets used up as it's added because people who'd been put off travelling by tube because of the crush loadings and unreliability go back to using it when it gets new trains, more reliable signalling and service frequency enhancements. The Victoria Line is a perfect example of this!

More entrances won't stop the platforms from been dangerously overcrowded! It'll just mean more entrances that'll need closing when things get bad!

Still my point is we need more lines- we need a period of future proof investment e.g like the massive tube expansion between 1900-1940!

Also a direct tube service between Waterloo & King's Cross wouldn't go amiss either.

And let's not even mention the buses yet (e.g the overcrowded 25 ..)

 

[transmanche]

Still my point is we need more lines- we need a period of future proof investment e.g like the massive tube expansion between 1900-1940!

You mean like London Overground, Thameslink, Crossrail 1 and Crossrail 2?

 

[a729]

You mean like London Overground, Thameslink, Crossrail 1 and Crossrail 2?

Crossrail 2 hasn't even been built

Crossrail 1 won't be here in full till 2019 and is rumoured that it will be full when its open!

London Overground is already largely full- getting a seat at peaks is a mere dream!

 

[transmanche]

Crossrail 2 hasn't even been built!

Hang on, first you're demanding "a period of future proof investment e.g like the massive tube expansion between 1900-1940" and now you're complaining that Crossrail 2 hasn't been built. Crossrail is a perfect example of what you're calling for - planning and investing for the future.

 

[Dstock7080]

Still my point is we need more lines- we need a period of future proof investment e.g like the massive tube expansion between 1900-1940!

Crossrail2 has not been built but is planned.

Most of the Northern Line extensions were planned, started to build, then abandoned. 'Built but never used' to coin a phrase. Part of the massive investment between 1900-1940.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Crossrail2 has not been built but is planned.

Most of the Northern Line extensions were planned, started to build, then abandoned. 'Built but never used' to coin a phrase. Part of the massive investment between 1900-1940.

I do wonder why they don't go back and just finish the Northern Heights. It's through a reasonably populated area, and would mean they could get rid of the silly Mill Hill East shuttle by running it through.

 

[DJL]

Actually - on the subject of abandoned improvement works. What about the Northern Line express platforms that were built?

Presumably since the station elements have already been built* the cost is significantly reduced as compared to a totally new line.

*I have no idea what state these elements are in. Probably they don't meet modern standards by a long shot.

I can only assume there are very good reasons why they haven't been used already since LU are unlikely to have forgotten that they exist!

1 reason I can think of is that maybe the stations at which these platforms exist are not the ones with massive overcrowding problems currently. ( I don't remember all the locations)

 

[transmanche]

Actually - on the subject of abandoned improvement works. What about the Northern Line express platforms that were built?

Presumably since the station elements have already been built* the cost is significantly reduced as compared to a totally new line.

*I have no idea what state these elements are in. Probably they don't meet modern standards by a long shot.

I can only assume there are very good reasons why they haven't been used already since LU are unlikely to have forgotten that they exist!

1 reason I can think of is that maybe the stations at which these platforms exist are not the ones with massive overcrowding problems currently. ( I don't remember all the locations)

The tunnels were actually designed to be running tunnels, not platform tunnels. They're big enough to fit mainline size stock (5m diameter, compared to 3.5m for normal tube tunnels), but not big enough to fit platforms (tube stations had 6m diameter tunnels). They were built alongside stations where the express line would not actually stop.

Some were sold off a long time ago: the one near chancery Lane became the Kingsway Telephone Exchange; the one near Goodge Street is a commercial document archive and the one at Clapham North has recently been bought by a company intending to use it as a hydroponic farm.

 

[DJL]

The tunnels were actually designed to be running tunnels, not platform tunnels. They're big enough to fit mainline size stock (5m diameter, compared to 3.5m for normal tube tunnels), but not big enough to fit platforms (tube stations had 6m diameter tunnels). They were built alongside stations where the express line would not actually stop.

Some were sold off a long time ago: the one near chancery Lane became the Kingsway Telephone Exchange; the one near Goodge Street is a commercial document archive and the one at Clapham North has recently been bought by a company intending to use it as a hydroponic farm.

oh I didn't realise they were running tunnels.
So in other words, even if all the existing infrastructure were still owned by LU the biggest expenses, i.e. stations, would still exist, so probably not worth trying to use what's there.

With that in mind the fact that lot's of it has been sold off is probably no big deal...

 

[edwin_m]

I do wonder why they don't go back and just finish the Northern Heights. It's through a reasonably populated area, and would mean they could get rid of the silly Mill Hill East shuttle by running it through.

They could build Mill Hill to Edgware and the section down to Finsbury Park, but it might just have the effect of funneling more passengers into the central section of the Northern Line or the GN suburbans, which are pretty much at capacity. North of Edgware is impossible as the first section is built over and the rest is Green Belt.

 

[a729]

Hang on, first you're demanding "a period of future proof investment e.g like the massive tube expansion between 1900-1940" and now you're complaining that Crossrail 2 hasn't been built. Crossrail is a perfect example of what you're calling for - planning and investing for the future.

It's not enough- we need much more .

In that 40 year period the Bakerloo,Central and Piccadilly lines were built as well as extensions to the Northern line that we still rely on today despite Underground usage being much higher.

You can't seriously be suggesting that Crossrail 2 which is arguably 20 or so years late is anywhere enough to been called 'future-proof' investment that will the Londoners of say 2070 will be able to take for granted like the Londoners of 1990 took the Underground for granted
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Crossrail2 has not been built but is planned.

Most of the Northern Line extensions were planned, started to build, then abandoned. 'Built but never used' to coin a phrase. Part of the massive investment between 1900-1940.

I was talking about the tangible investment that we are still reaping the rewards of today but it's true many of the planned projects that didn't happen/were cut back due to WW1 or WW2 would have been useful now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They could build Mill Hill to Edgware and the section down to Finsbury Park, but it might just have the effect of funneling more passengers into the central section of the Northern Line or the GN suburbans, which are pretty much at capacity. North of Edgware is impossible as the first section is built over and the rest is Green Belt.

Maybe a new Underground line could be built from Edgware to Highgate to Finsbury Park to Central London providing a new North-South route possibly connecting King's Cross and Waterloo directly?

 

[Nym]

More entrances won't stop the platforms from been dangerously overcrowded! It'll just mean more entrances that'll need closing when things get bad!

No, but it will mean the platforms can empty faster with an additional exit route, so that 36tph is able to run without platform unload crowding being a problem. So you can shift passengers out of the station as quickly as well.

 

[a729]

No, but it will mean the platforms can empty faster with an additional exit route, so that 36tph is able to run without platform unload crowding being a problem. So you can shift passengers out of the station as quickly as well.

But the effects of more entrances/exits will be offset by more frequent trains bringing even more people into the station.

I'm sure Victoria line's Victoria platforms have had more escalators added since the 1970s but overcrowding and people been held at the barriers have been a regular occurrence for years and I'm not convinced things will change considerably until the platforms are expanded like Angel, Euston have and Bank( Northern line's) will be....

 

[Nym]

Expanding the platforms like this won't make any difference to how quickly you can clear the platforms though, all it will do is move the crowding from the barriers to the platforms, and that is always going to be more dangerous.

 

[NSEFAN]

What would be the feasibility of arrival and departure platforms, i.e. passengers alight on one side and board on the other side of the train?

 

[Nym]

What would be the feasibility of arrival and departure platforms, i.e. passengers alight on one side and board on the other side of the train?

To retrofit, at Victoria deep level, Nil.

There would be a lot more chance of changing VIC to be more like Seven Sisters with a terminating road (current southbound platform) and making use of the sidings, or turning directly with using the trailing crossover.

This would be an offline upgrade by adding an additional southbound platform, exits and escalators to split the strain.

As an alternative to terminating, double branches is a possibility with a branch to Clapham, but Clapham Jcn is a bad idea as it would be a massive load on the already bursting network.