Doughnutting - witness statement

[passenger2020]

Hello all,

To be direct to the point, I have been doughnutting for a couple of month making around 20 trips.

I learnt the lesson and I am truly regretting it specially I was only saving few quids doing this which is not worth the worry I was feeling every time I feel an inspector around and now I could pay way more than what is saved.

I will wait for a letter from them but hope I can settle out of court with a reasonable amount.

Please if some can advise how to politely ask them to settle with a reasonable amount taking into consideration I had my railcard all the time and I kept paying a good fraction of the tickets.

Please tell any advice you have too.

Thanks

 

[Cuthbert]

He then asked for my ID which I gave him politely. He didn't tell me 'you can say nothing if you would like to' so I assume the chat was not interview under caution. Right ?

Sorry, you are sure they did not caution you and asked if you understood the caution?
“You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence. You are not under arrest and you can leave at anytime."

Through these 6 month of doghnutting I was using my uber account to book the trips, will they be able to track these ?

Did the inspector scan your ticket? If yes then they can request the data from Uber.

 

[Haywain]

He then asked for my ID which I gave him politely. He didn't tell me 'you can say nothing if you would like to' so I assume the chat was not interview under caution. Right ?

Not being cautioned won't be a get-out clause.

 

[passenger2020]

Sorry, you are sure they did not caution you and asked if you understood the caution?
“You do not have to say anything. But it may harm your defence if you do not mention when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence. You are not under arrest and you can leave at anytime."

Did the inspector scan your ticket? If yes then they can request the data from Uber.

No no, I didn't hear from him something like this at all. However he had a camera on his body.

My concern is that I felt scaried in the situation and he asked me if I used to take this train and I said no I am not used to while I had done this like 20 times in last 6 months.

Not being cautioned won't be a get-out

I am not trying to get-out.
I know how awful my deeds were and I just need advice to get it out of court with reasonable settlement.

 

[Cuthbert]

No no, I didn't hear from him something like this at all. However he had a camera on his body.

My concern is that I felt scaried in the situation and he asked me if I used to take this train and I said no I am not used to while I had done this like 20 times in last 6 months.



I am not trying to get-out.
I know how awful my deeds were and I just need advice to get it out of court with reasonable settlement.

Uff you lied and on a bodyworn footage. They will ask for the data from Uber and check your history and they will see that you lied to them.
I suggest any correspondence you get from the rail company you post in this thread with personnel details and ref number redacted.

 

[passenger2020]

Uff you lied and on a bodyworn footage. They will ask for the data from Uber and check your history and they will see that you lied to them.
I suggest any correspondence you get from the rail company you post in this thread with personnel details and ref number redacted.

Do I still have chances to state my regret in an email when receiving the notice of intention and request settlement out of court ?

 

[Cuthbert]

Do I still have chances to state my regret in an email when receiving the notice of intention and request settlement out of court ?

You may but as I said wait for the letter to arrive and post it on here so that the experts on this forum can help you draft a reply.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Not being cautioned won't be a get-out clause.

Just to expand on that a bit. Certainly at the TOC I work for (and presumably others) the only difference between a report that's submitted as a Ticket Irregularity and one that's submitted as an MG11 Witness Statement is whether it's given under caution or not.

The line of questioning is identical for both, but only the Revenue Protection team are trained to conduct interviews under PACE (the Police and Criminal Evidence Act.)

 

[John R]

The good news is that GTR is one of the better companies for agreeing settlements, and that the settlement amounts are usually less penal than other companies impose for this sort of offence. (Others ask for the Anytime Single for each journey, but I dont think we often see this from GTR.)

However, you should work on the assumption that they will review your Uber account and ask for the full amount of fares avoided, together with an admin fee of around £150. So you should review the account yourself, work out the proper fares due based on the times you travelled, and make sure you have the amount due when you get the inevitable letter from them.

 

[Pushpit]

Do I still have chances to state my regret in an email when receiving the notice of intention and request settlement out of court ?

It's good that you think about how you communicate your regret and commitment to do the right thing. But here is something that may be painful: it could be a while before you hear from GTR, and GTR control the process, not you. This could take 6 days, 6 weeks or (almost) 6 months. If they decide to check your travel history (and the double whammy of Foxton / Finsbury Park is a bit of an obvious trigger, to say the least) then that may require GTR to do some analysis first. In the mean time there is very little you can do except wait, perhaps research some other GTR cases in this forum, and continue to buy the correct tickets.

 

[passenger2020]

Just to expand on that a bit. Certainly at the TOC I work for (and presumably others) the only difference between a report that's submitted as a Ticket Irregularity and one that's submitted as an MG11 Witness Statement is whether it's given under caution or not.

The line of questioning is identical for both, but only the Revenue Protection team are trained to conduct interviews under PACE (the Police and Criminal Evidence Act.)

I can't understand what you need to tell.

I was just asked three or two questions on the train while I was sitting and the inspector doing the report on his tablet. But he didn't say any statement that warns me for me answers at all.

 

[AlterEgo]

I was just asked three or two questions on the train while I was sitting and the inspector doing the report on his tablet. But he didn't say any statement that warns me for me answers at all.

Nothing turns on this, and in any case the TOC has evidence of historic offending from the ticket purchasing site, if they wish to audit those purchases.

 

[passenger2020]

I am hoping to get a settlement out of court. And worst case will pay the outstanding fares for my short fared journeys plus admin fees

 

[30907]

I am hoping to get a settlement out of court. And worst case will pay the outstanding fares for my short fared journeys plus admin fees

That, I am afraid, is the best case rather than the worst (GTR may give you credit for the part-fares you actually paid, but don't bank on it). However, provided you engage with them it should be achievable.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

To be blunt, many people would argur that someone who evaders their fare 20 times should be prosecuted. If something like this doesn't end up in court then you do have to wonder just how serious a case has to be to end up in court.

That said, as other forum members have pointed out GTR are normally willing to offer an out of court settlement to people who co-operate with them, and who haven't come to their attention before. Expect to have to pay the cost of all the fares avoided at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the invalid tickets purchased, in addition to an admin fee, typically around £150.

GTR will write to you in the next few weeks asking for your version of events. When the letter arrives post a redacted version of it in this thread along with your draft reply and forum members will proof read it for you.

 

[passenger2020]

Just received the letter today from GTR.
I am following posts from other people with the same issue but I can see the lines for uploading the ticket/railcard first time in my letter.
As told earlier I used to do doghnutting but with a valid railcard, so I don't know if I should upload my railcard in addition to the reply to GTR or this is not the case here

 

[30907]

I don't think this is relevant.

It is for the "forgotten season/forgotten railcard" scenario where someone has been unable to show the item.

 

[passenger2020]

I have some questions please help me with answering these.

1. I am travelling outside the UK between 22nd March to 8th April and I fear that I miss any letters during this period. Should I inform the GTR with this in my letter ?

2. I see from similar posts people being get in touch with from the GTR after the response through email. how can I request to resume the communication through mail for my case which I will be out for two weeks ?

3. I am not used to the mailing system in UK. Should I print my letter then buy a specific envelope from the post office or any envelope will be fine ? should I include any papers I received from the GTR with my response letter ? Should I send it as first class signed ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Please review my response below :
Dear Sir/Madam,

Reference Number: XXXXXX

I am writing in response to your Notice of Intention to Prosecute letter dated 04th March 2025. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to provide a response.

On Tuesday, 3rd Dec 2024, at 09:30, my details were taken by a Revenue Protection Inspector near Finsbury Park Station after I was unable to produce a valid ticket for my journey. I was short-ticketing using a ticket from Cambridge to Foxton.

I take full responsibility for this error of judgement and acknowledge that there is no excuse for my actions. I now fully understand the significant financial impact that fare evasion has on the rail industry, and I deeply regret my actions.

I assure you that I will never repeat this behaviour and will always ensure that I pay the correct fare going forward.

I would be extremely grateful for the opportunity to settle this matter without court proceedings. I am willing to pay the outstanding fare together with any administrative costs incurred during this investigation.

Once again, I sincerely apologise for my wrongdoing. I deeply regret my actions and appreciate your consideration in allowing me to resolve this matter out of court.

Yours faithfully,
XXXXX

 

[WesternLancer]

I have some questions please help me with answering these.

1. I am travelling outside the UK between 22nd March to 8th April and I fear that I miss any letters during this period. Should I inform the GTR with this in my letter ?

2. I see from similar posts people being get in touch with from the GTR after the response through email. how can I request to resume the communication through mail for my case which I will be out for two weeks ?

3. I am not used to the mailing system in UK. Should I print my letter then buy a specific envelope from the post office or any envelope will be fine ? should I include any papers I received from the GTR with my response letter ? Should I send it as first class signed ?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Please review my response below :
Dear Sir/Madam,

Reference Number: XXXXXX

I am writing in response to your Notice of Intention to Prosecute letter dated 04th March 2025. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to provide a response.

On Tuesday, 3rd Dec 2024, at 09:30, my details were taken by a Revenue Protection Inspector near Finsbury Park Station after I was unable to produce a valid ticket for my journey. I was short-ticketing using a ticket from Cambridge to Foxton.

I take full responsibility for this error of judgement and acknowledge that there is no excuse for my actions. I now fully understand the significant financial impact that fare evasion has on the rail industry, and I deeply regret my actions.

I assure you that I will never repeat this behaviour and will always ensure that I pay the correct fare going forward.

I would be extremely grateful for the opportunity to settle this matter without court proceedings. I am willing to pay the outstanding fare together with any administrative costs incurred during this investigation.

Once again, I sincerely apologise for my wrongdoing. I deeply regret my actions and appreciate your consideration in allowing me to resolve this matter out of court.

Yours faithfully,
XXXXX

Your questions

1. Yes tell them those dates. Ask if they may be able to e mail you. Check your e mail and spam

2. You can not e mail them your responce iirc. You must print and post it. They might e mail you however. If they do that you can probably them e mail subsequent communications.

3. Use any envelope but seal it. You should send it first class tracked from any post office. Keep a copy of every page you send. Make sure each page you send has your case reference number on it. You may send back your letter from GTR but keep a copy. Write on it ‘please see attached reply’ so they don’t lose it in their office.

 

[passenger2020]

@Hadders would you please confirm this letter is good to send ? Thanks

Dear Sir/Madam,

Reference Number: XXXXXX

I am writing in response to your Notice of Intention to Prosecute letter dated 04th March 2025. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to provide a response.

On Tuesday, 3rd Dec 2024, at 09:30, my details were taken by a Revenue Protection Inspector near Finsbury Park Station after I was unable to produce a valid ticket for my journey. I was holding a short-ticket from Cambridge to Foxton.

I take full responsibility for this error of judgement and acknowledge that there is no excuse for my actions. I now fully understand the significant financial impact that fare evasion has on the rail industry, and I deeply regret my actions.

I assure you that I will never repeat this behavior and will always ensure that I pay the correct fare going forward.

I would be extremely grateful for the opportunity to settle this matter without court proceedings. I am willing to pay the outstanding fare together with any administrative costs incurred during this investigation.

Once again, I sincerely apologies for my wrongdoing. I deeply regret my actions and appreciate your consideration in allowing me to resolve this matter out of court.

Please note that I will be outside the UK from 22nd March to 6th April, Can we do further communication through my email : XXXXX@XX.com

Yours faithfully,
XXXXX

 

[Hadders]

That looks om to me. Please let us know the outcome of your case.

 

[passenger2020]

I just realised that I sent the letter and didn't write the "Prosecutions Department" in the To.

I started the address from "Eastside offices"

I have sent it tracked and now it is delivered.

Please help me how to know if it is delivered correctly or what should I do now.

My 14 days period to reply ends on 18th March

 

[Haywain]

I just realised that I sent the letter and didn't write the "Prosecutions Department" in the To.

I started the address from "Eastside offices"

I have sent it tracked and now it is delivered.

Please help me how to know if it is delivered correctly or what should I do now.

My 14 days period to reply ends on 18th March

If uoi haven't addressed the envelope to GTR Prosecutions Department then I would have low confidence of it being delivered to the correct office. There are several companies occupying parts of the East Side offices alongside GTR and not all of them are railway related. I would send it again with the full address.

 

[passenger2020]

My letter with the complete address got delivered and I have this as evidence.

Does Islington DO is the normal place which I expect the delivery to be signed in

 

[WesternLancer]

My letter with the complete address got delivered and I have this as evidence.

Does Islington DO is the normal place which I expect the delivery to be signed in

I think that just means it has got as far as Islington Royal Mail Delivery Office (DO) - which is not the destination of the railway offices - so it may yet have to go the last bit of it's journey

 

[Spaceship323]

Probably delivered by Islington D.O. (To the correct address)

 

[WesternLancer]

Probably delivered by Islington D.O. (To the correct address)

ah yes, good point - my error