Doubling-back

[Envy123]

Is this allowed? Seeing that NR has the most varied stopping patterns I have ever seen, I wouldn't be surprised if there were passengers who would take the first train and double-back. Some examples:

1). Taking the Cambridge Cruiser to Cambridge and taking the GN train southwards to Foxton.
2). The train stops at Finsbury Park, Knebworth and then all stations to Huntingdon. The hypothetical passenger takes this train to Knebworth and goes two stops southwards to Welwyn GC.

I do plan on moving somewhere in Herts and if I were to be faced with a train which skips my station but stops at the next one, am I allowed to take it and double-back? Or would I get in trouble with a ticket inspector?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Generally this is not permitted, though there are (few) easements. Best way to deal with this with a season ticket is to buy one to the furthest away station you would want to double back via. Much harder for regular tickets though.

 

[bb21]

Some doublebacks are permitted, but it will depend on the fare. There is no general rule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A Foxton - London Terminals ticket cannot be used to doubleback via Cambridge, as Cambridge fails fares check.

I cannot see anything that allows the doubleback in your second example either for fares to/from London Terminals.

 

[Hadders]

Is this allowed? Seeing that NR has the most varied stopping patterns I have ever seen, I wouldn't be surprised if there were passengers who would take the first train and double-back. Some examples:

1). Taking the Cambridge Cruiser to Cambridge and taking the GN train southwards to Foxton.
2). The train stops at Finsbury Park, Knebworth and then all stations to Huntingdon. The hypothetical passenger takes this train to Knebworth and goes two stops southwards to Welwyn GC.

I do plan on moving somewhere in Herts and if I were to be faced with a train which skips my station but stops at the next one, am I allowed to take it and double-back? Or would I get in trouble with a ticket inspector?

Generally you can't double back and I'm not aware of any easements that would allow it on that part of that GN line.

TBH the service to WGC is pretty good, 2 rains per hour that stop at Finsbury Park, Potters Bar and Hatfield and two all-shacks stoppers. There are only a very small handful of trains that run fast to Knebworth and these are in the peaks and were introduced to balance passengers between services (which seems to have worked well).

Foxton generally has an hourly service for much of the day. Sometimes it can be a bit quicker to change at Stevenage, Letchworth or Royston.

 

[CarltonA]

An intersting topic. For some journeys NRE advises starting in the wrong direction and changing onto a direct train back through the originating station. Denham - Gerrards Cross - Marylebone being an example that I have found. Fares to King's Lynn are the same as to Ely for me, though I doubt I would be allowed to Lynn on an Ely ticket (of course I get a KL ticket even if I'm only going to Ely).

 

[bb21]

NRE show doublebacks (correctly or incorrectly) for a variety of reasons.

In the case of Denham, that would be because it is not a timing point for passing trains, so NRE have no way of knowing that a doubleback had occurred there.

 

[Envy123]

The problem with buying in advance is that I usually don't know when I need to go home.

Also with Oyster, I am charged with all of the zones I go through which is fine. And Tfl services don't usually skip-stop.

But with NR, the stopping patterns can be roulette sometimes. So if the train operators know about the sometimes random stopping patterns, why don't they allow double-backing to make it easier for passengers?

 

[jopsuk]

other than early morning/late at night, the Kings Cross-Foxton stopping pattern is very predictable... same goes for most of the GN

 

[30907]

Having had a look at NRE for the evening I can only find one double back for WGC which is via Stevenage anyway, and none for Foxton, so it's a purely hypothetical situation unless services are seriously disrupted in which case one might hope for discretion.

If for some other reason you wanted to go to Foxton via Cambridge, an appropriate return ticket for that section could be bought at KGX and would allow you to use the fast train in conjunction with a season ticket.

I don't think there's any roulette element involved, it's just a matter of getting used to trains that don't stop at all stations.

 

[Hadders]

But with NR, the stopping patterns can be roulette sometimes. So if the train operators know about the sometimes random stopping patterns, why don't they allow double-backing to make it easier for passengers?

If they allowed that then anyone going to, say, Cambridge (in your example) would buy a ticket to Foxton and 'finish short'. This would deprive the railway of revenue.

I think you're making more of this than needs to be. In the case of Foxton via Cambridge if you caught the xx44 Cambridge Cruiser from Kings Cross this would arrive at xx30. The next train to Foxton would be at xx55 arriving at xx05. A total journey time of 1h21. Compared to the hourly direct train which takes 1h12.

As I said previously there are very few trains that skip WGC yet call at Knebworth. These are around the peak to balance passenger loadings. I doubt very much that doubling back would be quicker. Have you got any examples of where it would be quicker?

 

[greatkingrat]

A better example is Shelford - London via Cambridge, where the double back is suggested by NRE, although it doesn't allow it on a single fare.

I suspect it may be allowed in practice, as the Shelford - London fare is the same as the Cambridge - London AGA only fare. I doubt you would get away with going Shelford - Cambridge - Kings Cross though.

 

[34D]

A better example is Shelford - London via Cambridge, where the double back is suggested by NRE, although it doesn't allow it on a single fare.

I suspect it may be allowed in practice, as the Shelford - London fare is the same as the Cambridge - London AGA only fare. I doubt you would get away with going Shelford - Cambridge - Kings Cross though.

Isn't there an easement to forbid that?

 

[yorkie]

Is this allowed? Seeing that NR has the most varied stopping patterns I have ever seen, I wouldn't be surprised if there were passengers who would take the first train and double-back. Some examples:

1). Taking the Cambridge Cruiser to Cambridge and taking the GN train southwards to Foxton.

No, that is not allowed on a London to Foxton ticket. However a Season ticket holder could simply buy a Cambridge ticket for marginal extra cost, which would then allow it.

2). The train stops at Finsbury Park, Knebworth and then all stations to Huntingdon. The hypothetical passenger takes this train to Knebworth and goes two stops southwards to Welwyn GC.

No, that is not allowed on a London to Foxton ticket. However a Season ticket holder could simply buy a Knebworth ticket to enable this, at an additional cost of £344 for an annual.

I do plan on moving somewhere in Herts and if I were to be faced with a train which skips my station but stops at the next one, am I allowed to take it and double-back? Or would I get in trouble with a ticket inspector?

What would your origin and destination be?

 

[matt_world2004]

It is one major inconsistency between oyster tickets and paper tickets I imagine there is a lot of doubling back to smaller stations between Euston and Watford or between district line services and c2c services between upminster and fenchurch street. Someone with a paper ticket could be penalty fared or prosecuted for doing this whereas someone with an oyster cannot.

 

[causton]

You would be surprised at how much passengers value a lack of changes. Many people will wait for a stopping train rather than change twice and save 20 minutes of time (example from Watford). Especially the once an hour Southern to Clapham Junction, people would rather wait 40 minutes than take the Overground and change!


I doubt many people really doubleback that often, unless they are a determined commuter and in which case the tickets may be valid for it anyway!

 

[yorkie]

It is one major inconsistency between oyster tickets and paper tickets I imagine there is a lot of doubling back to smaller stations between Euston and Watford or between district line services and c2c services between upminster and fenchurch street. Someone with a paper ticket could be penalty fared or prosecuted for doing this whereas someone with an oyster cannot.

Can you give an example journey and ticket (particularly with the latter)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some doublebacks are permitted, but it will depend on the fare. There is no general rule.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A Foxton - London Terminals ticket cannot be used to doubleback via Cambridge, as Cambridge fails fares check.

Are you allowed to choose a routeing point if by doing so you would cause a double back? I didn't think you were, but I just went and read the Routeing Guide introduction and can't seem to find anything suggesting you can't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I doubt many people really doubleback that often, unless they are a determined commuter and in which case the tickets may be valid for it anyway!

I think there are places where it makes sense - for example from Wolverton to <anywhere on the north WCML> you are almost certain to get a faster journey by doubling back to MKC.

 

[londonbridge]

Say you wanted to travel from East Croydon to Wandsworth Common, you catch a fast train to Clapham Junction and then hop a stopper back to Wandsworth. Or Croydon-New Cross Gate, fast to London Bridge and one stop back. What is the situation if you do the above with a) Oyster PAYG, or b) paper ticket from Croydon to Wandsworth Common/New Cross Gate?

Also see my post (#19) in this thread:

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=45813

 

[Envy123]

other than early morning/late at night, the Kings Cross-Foxton stopping pattern is very predictable... same goes for most of the GN

Having had a look at NRE for the evening I can only find one double back for WGC which is via Stevenage anyway, and none for Foxton, so it's a purely hypothetical situation unless services are seriously disrupted in which case one might hope for discretion.

If for some other reason you wanted to go to Foxton via Cambridge, an appropriate return ticket for that section could be bought at KGX and would allow you to use the fast train in conjunction with a season ticket.

I don't think there's any roulette element involved, it's just a matter of getting used to trains that don't stop at all stations.

The seemingly random stopping patterns were between 4-5pm at King's Cross, last time I was there. Is that really a peak time?

If they allowed that then anyone going to, say, Cambridge (in your example) would buy a ticket to Foxton and 'finish short'. This would deprive the railway of revenue.

I think you're making more of this than needs to be. In the case of Foxton via Cambridge if you caught the xx44 Cambridge Cruiser from Kings Cross this would arrive at xx30. The next train to Foxton would be at xx55 arriving at xx05. A total journey time of 1h21. Compared to the hourly direct train which takes 1h12.

As I said previously there are very few trains that skip WGC yet call at Knebworth. These are around the peak to balance passenger loadings. I doubt very much that doubling back would be quicker. Have you got any examples of where it would be quicker?

But wouldn't the ticket barriers stop that?

If it's indeed quicker to take the direct train, then I will do so. But if it's even marginally quicker to take the fast train and change for slow services, I will do so.

It's a bit of an inconsistency that you change for slow services northbound on GN, and not southbound.

No, that is not allowed on a London to Foxton ticket. However a Season ticket holder could simply buy a Cambridge ticket for marginal extra cost, which would then allow it.

No, that is not allowed on a London to Foxton ticket. However a Season ticket holder could simply buy a Knebworth ticket to enable this, at an additional cost of £344 for an annual.

What would your origin and destination be?

What if the ticket holder sees that the train will depart 12 minutes later, and they deem it to be quicker to take the train to Knebworth for a one-off journey? Would they have time to pay an excess for that?

And I'm hoping I'll move to Potters Bar or Hitchin - at least those stations have frequent and fast services which are not missed out in the random stopping afternoon services. But who knows what stopping patterns may be when I would get back home in the late afternoon.

You would be surprised at how much passengers value a lack of changes. Many people will wait for a stopping train rather than change twice and save 20 minutes of time (example from Watford). Especially the once an hour Southern to Clapham Junction, people would rather wait 40 minutes than take the Overground and change!


I doubt many people really doubleback that often, unless they are a determined commuter and in which case the tickets may be valid for it anyway!

Interesting point. I actually went to Hornchurch to visit a friend, and needed to go to Stepney Green.

I tried a direct service and another which involved changing twice. Changing twice was much faster than the direct service which crawled all the way to Stepney Green.

It is one major inconsistency between oyster tickets and paper tickets I imagine there is a lot of doubling back to smaller stations between Euston and Watford or between district line services and c2c services between upminster and fenchurch street. Someone with a paper ticket could be penalty fared or prosecuted for doing this whereas someone with an oyster cannot.

Agree with this. I am hoping the rise of ITSO will allow the same flexibility as Oyster in terms of being able to double-back, but not being allowed to finish short and deprive the railway of revenue.

 

[matt_world2004]

Can you give an example journey and ticket (particularly with the latter)?

It is quicker to go to east ham from fenchurch street and doubling back from barking. If you had a paper 1-3 travel card you are risking a penalty fare. Even though you would only be charged a zone 1-3 price on oyster

 

[30907]

The seemingly random stopping patterns were between 4-5pm at King's Cross, last time I was there. Is that really a peak time?

What if the ticket holder sees that the train will depart 12 minutes later, and they deem it to be quicker to take the train to Knebworth for a one-off journey? Would they have time to pay an excess for that?

And I'm hoping I'll move to Potters Bar or Hitchin - at least those stations have frequent and fast services which are not missed out in the random stopping afternoon services. But who knows what stopping patterns may be when I would get back home in the late afternoon.

Interesting point. I actually went to Hornchurch to visit a friend, and needed to go to Stepney Green. I tried a direct service and another which involved changing twice. Changing twice was much faster than the direct service which crawled all the way to Stepney Green.

I've now found your Foxton example, leaving KGX at 1614. I can't find another, and the extra mileage is >25%. Hardly surprising a double back isn't allowed. I can't find a case where WGC via Knebworth works, but again it's 25% further. It's one of the disadvantages of a non zonal fares system, which works to your advantage in the Hornchurch case.

4-5pm is shoulder peak, hence the trains with extra stops. All the stations you mention have basically half hourly peak services from KGX, plus some extras. That's how the main line works, though some stations get more trains for all sorts of reasons.

 

[Hadders]

Checking the Northbound evening peak there are just two trains that call at Knebworth but not WGC. They leave Kings Cross at 1713 and 1843.

However there are trains to WGC that depart at 1722 and 1852 which arrive at WGC faster than doubling back via Knebworth would allow.

As I've said previously the stopping pattern was amended a few years ago to balance passenger loadings across the trains, and it has been largely successful. If the 1713 and 1843 stopped at WGC then they would become too packed, and the 1722 and 1852 would be largely empty. Although the 1722 and 1852 call at Knebworth as well in reality passengers for Knebworth will travel on the 1713 and 1843 thus freeing up seats for passengers travelling to WGC.

But wouldn't the ticket barriers stop that?

The barriers could be programmed to prevent tickets issued to other stations from opening them but most tickets permit break of journey. How could you legitimately stop someone breaking their journey and exiting at Cambridge, unless you're proposing break of journey be scrapped which would be anti-passenger.

Agree with this. I am hoping the rise of ITSO will allow the same flexibility as Oyster in terms of being able to double-back, but not being allowed to finish short and deprive the railway of revenue.

I don't think ITSO will work in the same way as Oyster PAYG. As I understand it there won't be a PAYG facility on ITSO, you'll have to load specific tickets.

We need to be very wary about the roll out of ITSO ticketing as it's likely to erode flexibility and passenger rights.

 

[Envy123]

I've now found your Foxton example, leaving KGX at 1614. I can't find another, and the extra mileage is >25%. Hardly surprising a double back isn't allowed. I can't find a case where WGC via Knebworth works, but again it's 25% further. It's one of the disadvantages of a non zonal fares system, which works to your advantage in the Hornchurch case.

4-5pm is shoulder peak, hence the trains with extra stops. All the stations you mention have basically half hourly peak services from KGX, plus some extras. That's how the main line works, though some stations get more trains for all sorts of reasons.

Ah, I didn't know about the shoulder peak. Cheers.

Checking the Northbound evening peak there are just two trains that call at Knebworth but not WGC. They leave Kings Cross at 1713 and 1843.

However there are trains to WGC that depart at 1722 and 1852 which arrive at WGC faster than doubling back via Knebworth would allow.

Then, that's fine.

As I've said previously the stopping pattern was amended a few years ago to balance passenger loadings across the trains, and it has been largely successful. If the 1713 and 1843 stopped at WGC then they would become too packed, and the 1722 and 1852 would be largely empty. Although the 1722 and 1852 call at Knebworth as well in reality passengers for Knebworth will travel on the 1713 and 1843 thus freeing up seats for passengers travelling to WGC.

Makes sense for that sort of stopping pattern, thank you.

The barriers could be programmed to prevent tickets issued to other stations from opening them but most tickets permit break of journey. How could you legitimately stop someone breaking their journey and exiting at Cambridge, unless you're proposing break of journey be scrapped which would be anti-passenger.

I meant the ticket barriers at Cambridge should still reject a Foxton to London Terminals ticket, but interchange should be allowed.

I don't think ITSO will work in the same way as Oyster PAYG. As I understand it there won't be a PAYG facility on ITSO, you'll have to load specific tickets.

We need to be very wary about the roll out of ITSO ticketing as it's likely to erode flexibility and passenger rights.

Only loading specific tickets? ITSO sounds like it's going backwards.

Makes me wish that Oyster would be extended throughout the UK but outside the Travelcard boundary, the TOCs charge their usual fares. But I heard that there's a backend issue of some sort which prevents adding new "zones" to cover that.

Or that ITSO would have a PAYG system which would allow double-backing in the same way as District/c2c and Watford DC/London Midland do, but as you said, it's unlikely.

I think why double-backing on PAYG works, because you can go anywhere in the Travelcard area as long as you have a sufficient balance and the ticket inspectors would be fine with it. But with a specific ticket, it looks like they would ask questions why (for example) a WGC ticketholder took the train to Knebworth because I'm guessing they would assume that they wouldn't double-back.

 

[bb21]

PAYG on ITSO? How much deposit would you like to pay for such a card?

 

[Hadders]

Only loading specific tickets? ITSO sounds like it's going backwards.

As I understand it you need to have a minimum amount of PAYG credit on Oyster when you tap in. In reality if you have insufficient credit for your journey then you are allowed to go into a small debit balance which will be cleared the next time you top-up. If you never top up again then TfL lose money but in the grand scheme of things this is relatively small.

Now consider how this might operate on the national rail network. A journey from Penzance to Kyle of Lochalsh costs £336.60. How much credit would passengers need to have on a PAYG card on tapping in? Remember that at the point you tap in the system doesn't know where you're going to go so it has to allow for all eventualities. Either passengers would be required to have a large PAYG balance on their card (which isn't really feasible) or the train companies would be at a massive risk of revenue loss (which would not be acceptable either).

PAYG works in a defined zonal system like London but it'll never work nationwide.

 

[yorkie]

A nationwide Pay As You Go system is not going to be viable, so I agree with the concerns expressed by Hadders...

I don't think ITSO will work in the same way as Oyster PAYG. As I understand it there won't be a PAYG facility on ITSO, you'll have to load specific tickets.

We need to be very wary about the roll out of ITSO ticketing as it's likely to erode flexibility and passenger rights.

... I would also point people towards the loss of rights that some Train Companies (eg. Virgin Trains) have imposed on passengers by introducing print@home or mobile tickets. Also looking at various posts by collector I fear that whichever TOC he works for are likely to try to erode our rights too.

 

[najaB]

Also looking at various posts by collector I fear that whichever TOC he works for are likely to try to erode our rights too.

Unless he is posting in an official capacity I would advise against reading too much into any one individual's posts. Even if they are indicative of attitude, they don't amount to policy.

 

[londonbridge]

As I understand it you need to have a minimum amount of PAYG credit on Oyster when you tap in. In reality if you have insufficient credit for your journey then you are allowed to go into a small debit balance which will be cleared the next time you top-up. If you never top up again then TfL lose money but in the grand scheme of things this is relatively small.

As I understand it, for a train the minimum is sufficient credit for a one-zone journey. However for a bus, thanks to the "one more journey" feature, in theory you could tap in on a bus with 1p credit and it will let you on and print out the emergency ticket. Of course this would leave you with a balance of -£1.44 so if you later topped up with a tenner your balance would then be £8.56.

 

[maniacmartin]

That's why Oyster cards have a deposit, to cover these negative balances