Doubling back query

[Par]

Last evening I was travelling from Nottingham to Rochdale using the return portion of an Off Peak Day Return.

The plan was 19.17 to Leeds and then the 21.43 from Leeds to Rochdale. The first leg was fine, spot on time. On arrival at Leeds, the departure boards were showing that both the 21.43 and 22.12 to Rochdale were both cancelled.

As we had arrived on P17 at Leeds and P16 is adjacent, I could see that a TPE to Liverpool was due to leave P16 at 21.30, so my plan was to approach the guard to ask if they would permit travel to Manchester Victoria on this ticket to allow me to double back to Rochdale (the TPE passes through Rochdale). Rightly or wrongly I was given permission to travel. Unfortunately due to a crew change at Leeds the TPE departed 20 late and though it made up some time en route, it arrived at Victoria just in time for me to see the 23.03 to Rochdale disappear from the opposite platform.

In the end, I caught the 23.35 to Rochdale which arrived about 5 minutes before the last Leeds - Rochdale train (had I waited in Leeds)

My question concerns the doubling back, my presumption is that whilst routing via Manchester is fine on this ticket, it isn’t permitted on the actual trains I took?

Also, because the final journey from Victoria to Rochdale shouldn't on the face of it arouse query, would the fact that the ticket wasn’t scanned at the Victoria gate line cause a problem (do guards see exactly where and when a ticket is scanned, I expect they must do so to prevent fraud)?

Thanks

 

[Haywain]

My question concerns the doubling back, my presumption is that whilst routing via Manchester is fine on this ticket, it isn’t permitted on the actual trains I took?

I don't really understand what you are asking, but validity of your ticket was determined by you being given permission to travel that way.

Also, because the final journey from Victoria to Rochdale shouldn't on the face of it arouse query, would the fact that the ticket wasn’t scanned at the Victoria gate line cause a problem (do guards see exactly where and when a ticket is scanned, I expect they must do so to prevent fraud)?

Do you mean a problem with claiming Delay Repay? If so, that is determined by your arrival time at Rochdale, not how you got there.

 

[Par]

I don't really understand what you are asking, but validity of your ticket was determined by you being given permission to travel that way.

Do you mean a problem with claiming Delay Repay? If so, that is determined by your arrival time at Rochdale, not how you got there.

On the first question, what I was really asking, was if I had boarded without seeking permission from the guard, was I entitled to take that train? I’m guessing not?

 

[jfollows]

Nottingham to Rochdale via Manchester is allowed because Manchester is a routeing point for Rochdale and because the route via Manchester passes the fares check.

Valid routes Nottingham to Manchester are shown on maps

• EM + MH
• EM + MS
• PR
• TM

at https://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps

none of which allow travel via Leeds. So it's the bit via Leeds that isn't permitted here, not the bit via Manchester.

 

[Par]

Im fine with claiming delay repay.

My second question was really about had I travelled Nottingham to Manchester Pic and then Man Vic to Rochdale that is perfectly fine, but the e-ticket (when scanned) on the final train I took from Victoria to Rochdale, would, if all scan data is visible, would have shown a curious history, including scanning on the Nottingham - Leeds train and no scan in at Victoria, which might cause an issue?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2024 ==

Nottingham to Rochdale via Manchester is allowed because Manchester is a routeing point for Rochdale and because the route via Manchester passes the fares check.

Yes, I’m aware. In fact in the morning yesterday, I travelled Manchester Pic to Nottingham. My query was about doubling back on my return journey.

 

[Haywain]

My second question was really about had I travelled Nottingham to Manchester Pic and then Man Vic to Rochdale that is perfectly fine, but the e-ticket (when scanned) on the final train I took from Victoria to Rochdale, would, if all scan data is visible, would have shown a curious history, including scanning on the Nottingham - Leeds train and no scan in at Victoria, which might cause an issue?

For Delay Repay purposes the only thing that matters is the time that you arrived at Rochdale and the legitimacy of the delay (the cancelled trains). As you could not have arrived earlier by other means, the route taken is not relevant.

 

[jfollows]

Yes, I’m aware. In fact in the morning yesterday, I travelled Manchester Pic to Nottingham. My query was about doubling back on my return journey.

Your return journey wasn't valid, but not for this reason. Doubling-back is often fine, it's generally not allowed on permitted routes as shown on maps on the routeing guide, but if it were a valid route from Nottingham via Leeds and Rochdale to Manchester, then the doubling-back to Rochdale would be fine. But the route via Leeds and Rochdale from Nottingham to Manchester isn't a valid route in the first place, unless it's a through train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2024 ==

Of course, Nottingham to Rochdale via Leeds is valid. It's just that Nottingham to Rochdale via Leeds and Manchester isn't valid.

 

[Haywain]

Your return journey wasn't valid, but not for this reason. Doubling-back is often fine, it's generally not allowed on permitted routes as shown on maps on the routeing guide, but if it were a valid route from Nottingham via Leeds and Rochdale to Manchester, then the doubling-back to Rochdale would be fine. But the route via Leeds and Rochdale from Nottingham to Manchester isn't a valid route in the first place, unless it's a through train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2024 ==

Of course, Nottingham to Rochdale via Leeds is valid. It's just that Nottingham to Rochdale via Leeds and Manchester isn't valid.

However, in the OP's case it was valid because they were given authority to travel that way.

 

[jfollows]

However, in the OP's case it was valid because they were given authority to travel that way.

Absolutely.
I was taking the question to be about validity without explicit permission, in which case I don’t think it’s valid.

 

[Par]

Your return journey wasn't valid, but not for this reason. Doubling-back is often fine, it's generally not allowed on permitted routes as shown on maps on the routeing guide, but if it were a valid route from Nottingham via Leeds and Rochdale to Manchester, then the doubling-back to Rochdale would be fine. But the route via Leeds and Rochdale from Nottingham to Manchester isn't a valid route in the first place, unless it's a through train.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jul 2024 ==

Of course, Nottingham to Rochdale via Leeds is valid. It's just that Nottingham to Rochdale via Leeds and Manchester isn't valid.

Yes, I understand, I had zero desire to go to Manchester Victoria, it was just a plan I hatched to get me to Rochdale in the quickest time with the services available. I did seek (and was granted) permission from the TPE guard before boarding. It would have worked had the TPE not departed Leeds 20 late!

The alternative was to wait for an hour and a half in Leeds.

 

[jfollows]

Yes, I understand, I had zero desire to go to Manchester Victoria, it was just a plan I hatched to get me to Rochdale in the quickest time with the services available. I did seek (and was granted) permission from the TPE guard before boarding. It would have worked had the TPE not departed Leeds 20 late!

The alternative was to wait for an hour and a half in Leeds.

Makes sense, I’d probably have done the same.

 

[Watershed]

Last evening I was travelling from Nottingham to Rochdale using the return portion of an Off Peak Day Return.

The plan was 19.17 to Leeds and then the 21.43 from Leeds to Rochdale. The first leg was fine, spot on time. On arrival at Leeds, the departure boards were showing that both the 21.43 and 22.12 to Rochdale were both cancelled.

As we had arrived on P17 at Leeds and P16 is adjacent, I could see that a TPE to Liverpool was due to leave P16 at 21.30, so my plan was to approach the guard to ask if they would permit travel to Manchester Victoria on this ticket to allow me to double back to Rochdale (the TPE passes through Rochdale). Rightly or wrongly I was given permission to travel. Unfortunately due to a crew change at Leeds the TPE departed 20 late and though it made up some time en route, it arrived at Victoria just in time for me to see the 23.03 to Rochdale disappear from the opposite platform.

In the end, I caught the 23.35 to Rochdale which arrived about 5 minutes before the last Leeds - Rochdale train (had I waited in Leeds)

My question concerns the doubling back, my presumption is that whilst routing via Manchester is fine on this ticket, it isn’t permitted on the actual trains I took?

Also, because the final journey from Victoria to Rochdale shouldn't on the face of it arouse query, would the fact that the ticket wasn’t scanned at the Victoria gate line cause a problem (do guards see exactly where and when a ticket is scanned, I expect they must do so to prevent fraud)?

Thanks

As you allude to, technically your ticket wasn't valid between Leeds and Manchester. You can travel via Leeds, or via Manchester, but not both.

Of course, since the TPE guard gave you permission to take their train there was no issue with you going via both Leeds and Manchester; they authorised an otherwise non-permitted route.

As for the scans, the presence of absence of a scan at the Victoria gateline is immaterial; the barriers could have been open, or you could have been let through by showing the barcode to a member of staff without it being scanned. Whilst the guard could look up the ticket's scan history, they would generally only do so if their scanning device flags up the ticket as invalid.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, I understand, I had zero desire to go to Manchester Victoria, it was just a plan I hatched to get me to Rochdale in the quickest time with the services available. I did seek (and was granted) permission from the TPE guard before boarding. It would have worked had the TPE not departed Leeds 20 late!

The alternative was to wait for an hour and a half in Leeds.

It's always best-practice to do this. You were trying to minimise on delay to your destination and spoke to a member of staff for assistance - both of these things are good practice. You would have no problem legitimately submitting a claim for the delay. As @Haywain has rightly pointed out, that matters for that is that you were unavoidably late by a qualifying time.

 

[Par]

It's always best-practice to do this. You were trying to minimise on delay to your destination and spoke to a member of staff for assistance - both of these things are good practice. You would have no problem legitimately submitting a claim for the delay. As @Haywain has rightly pointed out, that matters for that is that you were unavoidably late by a qualifying time.

Delay Repay is interesting.

On the original itinerary arrival at Rochdale was 22.47
The Vic - Rochdale train I had hoped to get arrived at 23.18
The actual Vic - Rochdale train I got arrived at 23.58
The last Leeds - Rochdale arrived at 00.04

So, arrival was between 60 and 119 late on both the train I caught or if I’d waited in Leeds. I have now submitted a claim on a 60 - 119 minute delay.

What should I have done (and how would I submit the claim) had I arrived at 23.18 on a train I technically shouldn’t have been on, but arrived only 31 late?

 

[Haywain]

What should I have done (and how would I submit the claim) had I arrived at 23.18 on a train I technically shouldn’t have been on, but arrived only 31 late?

You'd have put in a claim for arriving 31 minutes late, obviously.

 

[Par]

You'd have put in a claim for arriving 31 minutes late, obviously.

We yes, there would be no attempt to deceive, just that I’d imagine the logistics of submitting a claim and it being dealt with smoothly being problematic, giving the unusual nature of the journey.

The irony being that TPE gain nothing financially, but would have saved Northern money on the Delay Repay claim!

It‘s at moot anyway because I arrived at 23.58 and a 60-119 minute claim has gone into Northern.

 

[Starmill]

We yes, there would be no attempt to deceive, just that I’d imagine the logistics of submitting a claim and it being dealt with smoothly being problematic, giving the unusual nature of the journey.

The irony being that TPE gain nothing financially, but would have saved Northern money on the Delay Repay claim!

It‘s at moot anyway because I arrived at 23.58 and a 60-119 minute claim has gone into Northern.

You just claim for whatever actually happened, regardless.

If the online form doesn't accept that you can submit the claim by email to customer service, though likely they'll just tell you they want you to use the form. If the form still doesn't work you can always enter your own free text or send a covering email. It's then up to the customer service department how to accurately process the claim, not you.

 

[Par]

Thanks for the replies.

 

[Watershed]

Delay Repay interesting.

On the original itinerary arrival at Rochdale was 22.47
The Vic - Rochdale train I had hoped get arrived at 23.18
The actual Vic - Rochdale train I got arrived at 23.58
The last Leeds Rochdale arrived at 00.04

So, arrival was between 60 and 119 late on both the train I caught or if I’d waited in Leeds. I have now submitted a claim on a 60 - 119 minute delay.

What should I have done (and how would I submit the claim) had I arrived at 23.18 on a train I technically shouldn’t have been on, but arrived only 31 late?

Delay Repay forms don't ask what trains you actually took. They just ask what trains you intended to take and in some cases, depending on the TOC, the compensation band (30-59, 60-119 mins etc.) by which you were delayed.

So you don't actually need to tell Northern that you travelled via both Leeds and Manchester to claim. Just tell them - truthfully - what compensation band your delay fell into (60-119 mins). If they deny or undervalue your claim, that's when you might need to tell them the actual trains you took.

Even then I think it's highly unlikely anyone would question the route, and if they did, you would simply tell them what happened - that you approached the TPE guard at Leeds and obtained their permission to travel via Manchester.

It's easy to overthink it, to be honest. Just tell Northern the facts and it will all work out fine