Double vs single-deckers in the snow

[TUC]

We still have thick snow here. Earlier today I passed a double-decker stuck in the snow whilst attempting to turn right at the top of a steep hill. This made me wonder about the use of double deckers in such circumstances. My instinct is that double deckers are more likely to encounter difficulties in such situations, but is that actually the case or is their additional weight actually of benefit?

 

[greenline712]

We still have thick snow here. Earlier today I passed a double-decker stuck in the snow whilst attempting to turn right at the top of a steep hill. This made me wonder about the use of double deckers in such circumstances. My instinct is that double deckers are more likely to encounter difficulties in such situations, but is that actually the case or is their additional weight actually of benefit?

It very much depends on how you drive them. It also depends on the snow ... impacted snow is icy; fresh snow can give a modicum of grip.
A Leyland National, particularly the very early ones, had incredibly light steering, so you inched round some corners to avoid sharp movements with the steering. Any sharp movement would see control being lost. There was a (probably acrophical) story of a LN losing grip, and performing a 360 turn!!! Double decks are slightly more stable, but not much.
It's really all to do with keeping moving, even if very slowly ... if you stop, it can be very difficult to regain momentum. Not being funny, but in the 1980s, snow was much more frequent, even in the South East .... we all had had practice in how to drive in such weather .... my daughter has been driving for 15 years; and probably only 3-4 times in snow.

 

[Martin1988]

Remember about a week into January 2010 when my college had a snow day, catching the bus from Yate to Bristol and back. Think I caught the then X27 route into Bristol and the 342 back home again. Had a single decker on the way into Bristol and a double decker on the way back. Both of these allocations were normal for these routes at the time.

 

[Pyewipecarshed]

I think generally it doesn't matter in snow whether a bus is single or double deck, it's more about the characteristics of different types.
As greenline712 says Nationals were fairly dire in low grip conditions due to poor weight distribution - later ones had the batteries moved forward to try to get more weight on the front.
Scania Metropolitans were a bit iffy in snow and ice as well, oodles of power and a two-speed gearbox making it very hard to set off gently!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

As @Pyewipecarshed and @greenline712 state, there are so many variables that it simply isn't down to whether it's a double or single decker.

On the subject of Leyland Nationals, I remember my late father completing an incident/accident form. First bus on a very cold morning on a road where there was a dispute on maintenance between the MOD and the local council meant it wasn't gritted. He had a early semi-auto National and was going carefully when it just started sliding, clipped the nearside kerb, and then went sideways down the road! Fortunately, it being a military area and being the location of a tank servicing workshop, the road (incl location of lampposts) was very wide.

The mention of two speed gearboxes reminds me of something else. Going back to the 1980s, the depot my dad worked at had an allocation that had quite a few manual vehicles (Bristol LHs), semi automatics (e.g. VRs, Nationals, REs) and some fully autos (i.e. Nationals, Olympians). Even though the Bristol LHs were lightweight machines, they were much preferred in the snow because of the level of control that a manual gave a driver, as well as the weight distribution of a centrally located engine!

Nowadays, I find the same in my private car. I appreciate an auto gearbox most of the time but not in the snow. And going back to @greenline712, my dad made me practice driving in snow by finding a deserted carpark so I learnt the skills - keep moving, low revs, etc

 

[Thames99]

How do bendy buses cope in snow? One presumably has the additional risk of jack-knifing with those.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I generally found double deckers did better in snow, owing to having the fuel tank towards the front (normally under the stairs) and thus having a decent amount of weight at both the front - for steering - and the back - for traction.

 

[Statto]

I think generally it doesn't matter in snow whether a bus is single or double deck, it's more about the characteristics of different types.
As greenline712 says Nationals were fairly dire in low grip conditions due to poor weight distribution - later ones had the batteries moved forward to try to get more weight on the front.
Scania Metropolitans were a bit iffy in snow and ice as well, oodles of power and a two-speed gearbox making it very hard to set off gently!

Indeed, i've seen some videos, both involving single deck buses in the snow, one Arriva North East single deck [think its a Temsa Avenue] on an X4 going up Saltburn Bank with ease, another Stagecoach East Midlands E300, struggling to get up a hill, with the rear end almost sliding out, on a Clay Cross - Chesterfield route

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

i've seen some videos, both involving single deck buses in the snow, one Arriva North East single deck [think its a Temsa Avenue] on an X4 going up Saltburn Bank with ease

It is a Temsa Avenue and yes, with ease but also no small amount of skill from the driver as he not only has to deal with abandoned cars and others descending the bank.

 

[RT4038]

As @Pyewipecarshed and @greenline712 state, there are so many variables that it simply isn't down to whether it's a double or single decker.

On the subject of Leyland Nationals, I remember my late father completing an incident/accident form. First bus on a very cold morning on a road where there was a dispute on maintenance between the MOD and the local council meant it wasn't gritted. He had a early semi-auto National and was going carefully when it just started sliding, clipped the nearside kerb, and then went sideways down the road! Fortunately, it being a military area and being the location of a tank servicing workshop, the road (incl location of lampposts) was very wide.

The mention of two speed gearboxes reminds me of something else. Going back to the 1980s, the depot my dad worked at had an allocation that had quite a few manual vehicles (Bristol LHs), semi automatics (e.g. VRs, Nationals, REs) and some fully autos (i.e. Nationals, Olympians). Even though the Bristol LHs were lightweight machines, they were much preferred in the snow because of the level of control that a manual gave a driver, as well as the weight distribution of a centrally located engine!

Nowadays, I find the same in my private car. I appreciate an auto gearbox most of the time but not in the snow. And going back to @greenline712, my dad made me practice driving in snow by finding a deserted carpark so I learnt the skills - keep moving, low revs, etc

Quite. A Lodekka even better.........

 

[GusB]

Indeed, i've seen some videos, both involving single deck buses in the snow, one Arriva North East single deck [think its a Temsa Avenue] on an X4 going up Saltburn Bank with ease, another Stagecoach East Midlands E300, struggling to get up a hill, with the rear end almost sliding out, on a Clay Cross - Chesterfield route

It is a Temsa Avenue and yes, with ease but also no small amount of skill from the driver as he not only has to deal with abandoned cars and others descending the bank.

That certainly was an impressive bit of driving. "Here, I'll show you how it's done!"

The clip is available here for those who haven't seen it:

My old primary school is situated at the bottom of a fairly steep hill and I recall one winter when some buses used to struggle in slippery conditions. I didn't know what each bus type was then, but it was generally those whose engines were at the front that had the problems. It would have been the very early 80s as there were still a handful of Albion Vikings around, as well as the more numerous Fords. I recently read that drivers preferred the Vikings in winter because there was more weight on the driving axle.

 

[RJ]

How do bendy buses cope in snow? One presumably has the additional risk of jack-knifing with those.

The rear section is very heavy, so long as the driver isn’t oscillating the steering constantly they will hold steady in the snow.

My 12m Citaros have been doing well in snow and are a lot more sturdy than a car in these conditions.

But I did have an experience in one of them going into Llandeilo station where the snow had completely frozen over and the ice was cracking under the wheels. With nobody on board for Llandovery, I took the opportunity to practice handling on the ice by deliberately seeing what would the reaction would be to throttle and brake applications. It wasn’t for the faint hearted - the wheels were spinning out, causing the back end to slide towards the kerb and the ABS went into overdrive, which had some effect in reducing speed on the ice rink-like road.

Meanwhile turning the steering wheel did not result in the bus changing direction. The only way to retain control was literally to let it roll at idle revs and go at less than walking pace. With this, I was able to turn around in the car park and get out of there.

I was glad to get back onto the main road, though a patch of black ice on a bend in Ffairfach did cause a slight drift, but wasn’t going fast enough to lose control. I would not want to drive these vehicles fully laden on a hill with parked cars in these conditions.