Double gating

[island]

Yep it is an offence, but chances are on presentation of the valid ticket the staff would tell you not to do it again and to replace the ticket rather then going for the nuclear option.

Indeed. Only passengers failing the attitude test would be likely to get in any substantial trouble.

 

[davyp]

In some towns and cities they have large metal bollards to control vehicular traffic. These can be raised and lowered so that authorised vehicles can pass through. Once saw an aston martin try to tailgate one of the free metro buses in Manchester ~ result? One Aston with a huge bollard stuffed up its engine....
Now, how about a very large pointy metal spike going up and down next to the barrier?

 

[route:oxford]

In some towns and cities they have large metal bollards to control vehicular traffic. These can be raised and lowered so that authorised vehicles can pass through. Once saw an aston martin try to tailgate one of the free metro buses in Manchester ~ result?

They do exactly the same thing with Mobility Scooters too, I've witnessed a poor old dear breaking an arm.

Interestingly, I've had to deal with an incident at work. The subsequent car, a battered old Volvo of little more than scrap value, caused considerable damage to the bollard.

We tried to make a claim through the insurer, but was unsuccessful. The reason (from memory) being:-

"The purpose of the bollard is to impede or cause damage to cars and you have placed signs approaching the bollard to warn users that there is a risk that their cars may be damaged..."

"...Clearly the bollard was either unfit for purpose or not installed in accordance with manufacturers instructions, your claim is therefore rejected".

 

[Mojo]

At busy stations you wouldn't even notice somebody 'tailgating' you, the trick is (and this 'cat' was let out of the bag on TV sometime ago) is to block the beam (thus keeping the gate open) with your left hand whilst having a wallet in your right hand which you put on the oyster reader, the chances of getting spotted are about the same as winning the lotto jackpot

Depends. Blocking the beam as shown on the TV actually does stuff all, at least on the model of gates they showed it being done on!

In any case, you might not get spotted by the member of staff on the gates, but properly positioned Revenue Inspectors (so not where the majority of Toc RPIs I see stand...) can spot this a mile off.

 

[DarloRich]

Hi everyone

There appears to be a scam which happens at Leeds and I am sure it could happen at other similer gates.

One boards a train from an unmanned station travels to Leeds with out a ticket.
On arrival at Leeds they get in a busy queue for the barriers, the fare paying customer opens the gate with the correct ticket. The dodger then goes through immediately up close to them and hey presto they are through

You just have to go to Leeds and watch - it must be costing toc 's a fortune

What do other people think and what ideas can be mentioned to stop this theft

Christ on a bike that happens everywhere! If it is happening to you just dawdle and generally look incompetent and the person without a ticket will be caught as the gates close

 

[Antman]

Depends. Blocking the beam as shown on the TV actually does stuff all, at least on the model of gates they showed it being done on!

In any case, you might not get spotted by the member of staff on the gates, but properly positioned Revenue Inspectors (so not where the majority of Toc RPIs I see stand...) can spot this a mile off.

I don't understand your point, blocking the beam keeps the gates open, I've seen staff do it.

Far more likely to spot offenders on CCTV than with the naked eye.

 

[Mojo]

I don't understand your point, blocking the beam keeps the gates open, I've seen staff do it.

It depends on the type of gates and which beam you cover. Covering the specific beam on the type of gate shown on the TV show does not mean the gate stays open. Normally it will be done on the far side beams on the Wide Aisle Gates.

Beg to differ on the CCTV issue, far quicker to respond to someone doubling through in person, and I speak from experience.

 

[rmt4ever]

You can get a family of five through those wheelchair gates. Why all TOCs seem to have replaced the manual operator ones with them ill never know (since really you need a gateline operative at the barriers to have them in use anyway).

Lots of LT stations have em now, they stay open long enough for a 95 year old granny to tailgate through. Lol. Train companies are idiots

 

[Tibbs]

You can get a family of five through those wheelchair gates. Why all TOCs seem to have replaced the manual operator ones with them ill never know (since really you need a gateline operative at the barriers to have them in use anyway).

Lots of LT stations have em now, they stay open long enough for a 95 year old granny to tailgate through. Lol. Train companies are idiots

The TOC will have done the maths (one hopes) and worked out that the cost of people tailgating is less than the cost of the member of staff.

Profit > everything else in a private company.

 

[Antman]

It depends on the type of gates and which beam you cover. Covering the specific beam on the type of gate shown on the TV show does not mean the gate stays open. Normally it will be done on the far side beams on the Wide Aisle Gates.

Beg to differ on the CCTV issue, far quicker to respond to someone doubling through in person, and I speak from experience.

Yes if the person is spotted but this little scam all happens in the blink of an eye
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You can get a family of five through those wheelchair gates. Why all TOCs seem to have replaced the manual operator ones with them ill never know (since really you need a gateline operative at the barriers to have them in use anyway).

Lots of LT stations have em now, they stay open long enough for a 95 year old granny to tailgate through. Lol. Train companies are idiots

I very much agree but manually operated gates are often left ajar to save staff having to keep unlocking them

 

[starrymarkb]

The TOC will have done the maths (one hopes) and worked out that the cost of people tailgating is less than the cost of the member of staff.

Profit > everything else in a private company.

IIRC one of the continental operators (IIRC it was a German Verkersbetreibe*) said that 5% fare evasion was their target, at that point the fines levyed nicely covered the cost of the enforcement, to reduce it they would have to spend more money on inspectors and of course less fines meant the inspector's wages would have to be found from the paying passenger/local government subsidy.

*Municipal Bus/Tram company - usually owned by the city.

 

[jon0844]

That's always the problem.

Invest in lots of RPIs and you'll eventually start to convince people that they stand very little chance of getting away with things - and so you now lose revenue, with a higher salary bill in the process.

A big problem is that accountants can't usually see the bigger picture. They might not just get more people to buy a ticket, but also deter some people from travelling completely - the people that might cause problems and cost the TOC money, directly (vandalism) or indirectly (putting others off travel).

Naturally, what happens is a TOC scales back on enforcement which then sends out the message that it's okay to try it on again...

 

[RPI]

We go out in plain clothes quite a lot to combat this, is mainly wide scale on the wide aisle gates, magistrates usually throw the book at people stopped for this and they get reported for two offences, the byelaw of not using a ticket barrier in the correct manor, and 5.3(a)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes if the person is spotted but this little scam all happens in the blink of an eye
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




I very much agree but manually operated gates are often left ajar to save staff having to keep unlocking them

Manual checks are hopeless, just look at Birmingham New Street where you can show a bite card, a Tesco club card or an out of date sleeper reservation to get in or out.

 

[Eeveevolve]

I do this myself at Leeds sometimes, although I always have a valid season ticket. The problem is that the magnetic strip in the ticket sometimes stops working when there's still several weeks validity on the damned thing. You can try to find someone to let you through, but that can be a bit of a farce.

And then the ticket staff state that it is because you have kept your mobile phone close to the ticket... Which is absolute bullcrap.

Last time I checked, phones used EM frequancies not magnets to work.

 

[scotraildriver]

In some towns and cities they have large metal bollards to control vehicular traffic. These can be raised and lowered so that authorised vehicles can pass through. Once saw an aston martin try to tailgate one of the free metro buses in Manchester ~ result? One Aston with a huge bollard stuffed up its engine....
Now, how about a very large pointy metal spike going up and down next to the barrier?

If someone tailgates you pause just past the barrier and they will get whacked with the paddles

 

[ert47]

And then the ticket staff state that it is because you have kept your mobile phone close to the ticket... Which is absolute bullcrap.

Last time I checked, phones used EM frequancies not magnets to work.

Phones have speakers, while not strong does have a magnet

 

[edwin_m]

But the speaker won't be doing anything while it's in your pocket next to your ticket, or at least it won't if you remember to lock the keypad! Or is there a permanent magnet that is powerful enough to do any damage?

 

[Antman]

If someone tailgates you pause just past the barrier and they will get whacked with the paddles

No they won't, the trick is to put your hand over the beam thus keeping that gate open.

 

[DarloRich]

No they won't, the trick is to put your hand over the beam thus keeping that gate open.

even though you have been told this doesn’t work with all barriers you continue to suggest it.

 

[Lampshade]

Someone tried to do this behind me once, as soon as I was clear of the flippers (so it could close without hitting me) I just stopped dead. The language he came out with was shall we say... blue, I just turned round, smiled at him and walked off

 

[Antman]

even though you have been told this doesn’t work with all barriers you continue to suggest it.

Which barriers does that not work on then?

I am puzzled as to how barriers could operate without such sensors

 

[W230]

I still think barriers are in general the best option. I saw a passenger get off a Stansted Express service at Tottenham Hale yesterday, touch out on the platform then get back on the same train although I suppose they probably couldn't have done that if there were staff about. Maybe they had a Tottenham Hale to Stansted Express ticket!

Would a gate even stop this incident happening anyway - does someone have to physically walk through (or break the beam in the gate) after touching out?

 

[tsr]

Would a gate even stop this incident happening anyway - does someone have to physically walk through (or break the beam in the gate) after touching out?

Nope! However, stations with standalone readers on the platform may have those turned off if the gates are in operation. Also, there is the chance your train could be despatched whilst you touch out. I have previously (and legitimately) had to change between Oyster Pay-As-You-Go and paper tickets in a similar way at a gateline, and did not physically walk through the gate. It all went OK.

 

[Antman]

I still think barriers are in general the best option. I saw a passenger get off a Stansted Express service at Tottenham Hale yesterday, touch out on the platform then get back on the same train although I suppose they probably couldn't have done that if there were staff about. Maybe they had a Tottenham Hale to Stansted Express ticket!

Would a gate even stop this incident happening anyway - does someone have to physically walk through (or break the beam in the gate) after touching out?

I have seen people do that at other locations, of course they may well have a valid ticket to continue their journey.

On the subject of Stansted Airport I'm suprised there are no ticket gates there, at least there weren't the last time I passed through there.

 

[jon0844]

Someone tried to do this behind me once, as soon as I was clear of the flippers (so it could close without hitting me) I just stopped dead. The language he came out with was shall we say... blue, I just turned round, smiled at him and walked off

I'd be aware that funny as that might be, they're going to get out with someone else sooner or later and might well come after you.

I guess it depends on what station you're at, but it's not worth being assaulted because you were trying to do a job that should be left to railway staff.

 

[DarloRich]

Which barriers does that not work on then?

I am puzzled as to how barriers could operate without such sensors

I am not sure but it didn't work with the ones at Bletchley or Milton Keynes this evening when i tried it . Perhaps i didn't do it right.

 

[starrymarkb]

But the speaker won't be doing anything while it's in your pocket next to your ticket, or at least it won't if you remember to lock the keypad! Or is there a permanent magnet that is powerful enough to do any damage?

Mobile speakers are probably piezo transducers rather then proper magnetic loudspeakers

 

[sparks2000]

Yep it is an offence, but chances are on presentation of the valid ticket the staff would tell you not to do it again and to replace the ticket rather then going for the nuclear option.

Let's hope common sense prevails. What would be achieved by prosecuting? There must be other more important issues to allocate resources to first.

If a ticket should be retained by the barrier or marked as consumed by the barrier then avoiding that would be evasion. In that scenario when challenged prosecution should be encouraged.

If this does not apply and there is no harm caused the why prosecute? If someone is detained unnecessarily and their time wasted because of cost cutting on staff or unfit equipment then that is a material harm to the customer. In general contracts supplier to customer a reasonableness test would apply.

I can understand that having to challenge people unecessarily is a waste of resource but one presumes the challenge to success rate justifies the challenges.

 

[armadillomaste]

I'd be aware that funny as that might be, they're going to get out with someone else sooner or later and might well come after you.

I guess it depends on what station you're at, but it's not worth being assaulted because you were trying to do a job that should be left to railway staff.

Or how big you are yourself?

At 5ft 10 but weighing in at around 18stone most people wouldn't try the big i am.

I'm not tall but very well built in a non fat way.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Several times - slow right down going through - and I have "persuaded" a suit that did it to me that I was getting the CCTV downloaded and he would be nicked. No intention of course - but I hope he worried about it in his city office for a few days ...

Did he also knock the chip off your shoulder?