Double decker trains

[markymark2000]

If double decker trains are HS1 compatible. Why not just put in a HS1 link next to Folkestone and then upgrade that section round to Dover Priory. While there will be costs associated with this, it would be a good experiment for them to see what is possible, how difficult it would be to implement and see how british people take to them. South Eastern can 'split' their South East High Speed Circulars so trains can run Dover Priory to LSP via Ashford all day. Yes it's an expensive experiment but I do think it would help to pave the way for the future. Longer trains aren't do-able. Double decker trains aren't suitable on most areas due to the amount of work involved with infrastructure. At least this way we can see what is do-able and with it being linked to HS1, only the Folkestone to Dover section needs sorting. Nothing else.

When that is done, they can debrief the costs and see if it's viable to do on the rest of the SE High Speed network (or parts of the network). SouthEastern High Speed is probably the perfect testing area as well with a large part already sorted and ready for double deck trains.


I also ask this, if HS1 is double decker compatible, why hasn't Eurostar opted for double decker trains? It could help them reduce the length of their current trains.

 

[themiller]

If double decker trains are HS1 compatible. Why not just put in a HS1 link next to Folkestone and then upgrade that section round to Dover Priory. While there will be costs associated with this, it would be a good experiment for them to see what is possible, how difficult it would be to implement and see how british people take to them. South Eastern can 'split' their South East High Speed Circulars so trains can run Dover Priory to LSP via Ashford all day. Yes it's an expensive experiment but I do think it would help to pave the way for the future. Longer trains aren't do-able. Double decker trains aren't suitable on most areas due to the amount of work involved with infrastructure. At least this way we can see what is do-able and with it being linked to HS1, only the Folkestone to Dover section needs sorting. Nothing else.

When that is done, they can debrief the costs and see if it's viable to do on the rest of the SE High Speed network (or parts of the network). SouthEastern High Speed is probably the perfect testing area as well with a large part already sorted and ready for double deck trains.


I also ask this, if HS1 is double decker compatible, why hasn't Eurostar opted for double decker trains? It could help them reduce the length of their current trains.

IIRC, the length of the class 373 Eurostar’s was mandated by the tunnel regulator so that a broken-down train was always adjacent to a cross-passage access door. Since then, the EU has questioned the requirement of the Intergovernmental Commission for safety in the fixed link saying that the Channel Tunnel is no different from other long tunnels so the length of the train should not be fixed by this requirement, paving the way for other trains such as 8-coach ICEs to operate international services from St Pancras.

 

[HSTEd]

I would imagine you will need stairs in each carriage just for safety purposes - in the event of an accident where the coach with stairs becomes crushed or engulfed in flames there has to be some other means of egress from the other carriages, as dropping several metres from an upper window won’t be safe. Could be done aircraft style with inflatable stairs I suppose!

It is hard to conceive of an accident where vehicles at both ends of the unit become unusable but the trainset remains upright.
An airliner style inflatable slide would take up considerably less room if it was really necessary.
I think a four or five car set could do with two or three staircases.

 

[Intellectual98]

If double decker trains are HS1 compatible. Why not just put in a HS1 link next to Folkestone and then upgrade that section round to Dover Priory. While there will be costs associated with this, it would be a good experiment for them to see what is possible, how difficult it would be to implement and see how british people take to them. South Eastern can 'split' their South East High Speed Circulars so trains can run Dover Priory to LSP via Ashford all day. Yes it's an expensive experiment but I do think it would help to pave the way for the future. Longer trains aren't do-able. Double decker trains aren't suitable on most areas due to the amount of work involved with infrastructure. At least this way we can see what is do-able and with it being linked to HS1, only the Folkestone to Dover section needs sorting. Nothing else.

When that is done, they can debrief the costs and see if it's viable to do on the rest of the SE High Speed network (or parts of the network). SouthEastern High Speed is probably the perfect testing area as well with a large part already sorted and ready for double deck trains.


I also ask this, if HS1 is double decker compatible, why hasn't Eurostar opted for double decker trains? It could help them reduce the length of their current trains.

When the potential costs are tens of billions I'm not sure it's wise to run an experiment with the public purse. Government isn't exactly flush with cash.

 

[Intellectual98]

As it appears, yes! In fact the design looks much better than my quick scrawls, having shorter single level carriages to allow for even more two floor space and shared bogies, which further reduces space and increases safety.

The design is still quite a bit out of UK loading gauges from what I can tell, although it looks like it has been designed to maximise the french loading gauge as it advertises itself as wider than the average french double-decker train.

Anyway, so I did a bit of poking around to see if I could compare the specifications of this train to the loading gauges of the UK. Although for the most part it seems quite restrictive, there are different classifications, with different areas of the network having larger gauges. These are all classified as "WX" something, with W6 being the most common, but a suprising amount of the network conforming to the W10 standard:
https://cdn.networkrail.co.uk/wp-co...nced-W10-loading-gauge-map-of-the-network.pdf

Still the W10 standard allows trains to be 2.9 meters high and 2.5 meters wide, which is still short of what most bi-level trains around the world conform to. Even on Japan's narrow gauge rail network, their trains are still able to be both wider (4.1 meters high and 3 meters wide) and taller than ours, even though they are limited to 75mph.
Even the most liberal UK standard, W12, is still just 2.9 meters high and 2.6 meters wide.

Unfortunately, our network still falls a meter short on height and half a meter short on width, so we really are significantly limited, unless some breakthrough space saving designs can be created. Obviously as well, the loading gauge is likely not a strict square and the shape of the gauge could allow for some deviations here and there, although I couldn't find any particular diagrams. Maybe some newly re-worked routes may be suitable as well as the newer HS1 and Crossrail networks.

Unless no individual is taller than 4ft then yes, we could fit double decker trains on the networks. Unfortunately they would only fit little people.

 

[AM9]

If double decker trains are HS1 compatible. Why not just put in a HS1 link next to Folkestone and then upgrade that section round to Dover Priory. While there will be costs associated with this, it would be a good experiment for them to see what is possible, how difficult it would be to implement and see how british people take to them. South Eastern can 'split' their South East High Speed Circulars so trains can run Dover Priory to LSP via Ashford all day. Yes it's an expensive experiment but I do think it would help to pave the way for the future. Longer trains aren't do-able. Double decker trains aren't suitable on most areas due to the amount of work involved with infrastructure. At least this way we can see what is do-able and with it being linked to HS1, only the Folkestone to Dover section needs sorting. Nothing else.

When that is done, they can debrief the costs and see if it's viable to do on the rest of the SE High Speed network (or parts of the network). SouthEastern High Speed is probably the perfect testing area as well with a large part already sorted and ready for double deck trains. ...

All that would be learnt is that running double deck trains in the UK requires very expensive infrastructure modifications and that there is little to gain. The Javelin service is mainly constrained by the number of class 395 sets available, and as no other domestic stock can be diverted to run on it, the only fix would be to procure a few more. The fact that nobody has seriously proposed spending public money on more class 395 units, suggests that it isn't anything worth considering. As an 'experiment' with likely known results, that would be a sheer waste of money. Maybe the DfT should just run a full scale costing, (which would cost a few million pounds) and then make a decision on whether it's worth spending on that scale for whatever increase in route capacity that modelling shows. I think I know the answer, - add to the the UK's fantastic ability to do nothing about anything, and it's a dead duck.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Hey, the Bullied 4DDs were built in 1949. Hold that thought for a second.

Justapunter is accusing the industry of complacency. Now, the industry knew about double deck trains as a solution to overcrowding 70 years ago. Seventy years. Three-quarters of a century. A lifetime. And it's done nothing to accommodate the idea.

So who deserves the hard time they're getting here?

Hence my previous post upthread.

The 4DD units were not a resounding success and it was more cost-effective to not build any more; therefore, the then Southern Region of British Railways did a cost analysis and decided it was more cost effective to build trains that could be marshalled into 10 coaches, extend platforms to accommodate them and upgrade the power supply (viz: the Ten Car Scheme)

Even prior to this, O.V.S Bulleid, a Chief Mechanical Engineer of the Southern in the late 1930s/1940s) designed a train that had compartments to every bay and six-a-side seating in an attempt to ease overcrowding. Early all-steel carriages to this spec were built and inserted into pre-war sets and what became known as 4 Sub were four-car all-steel units with a mix of compartments, quasi-saloon and full saloon - all with six-a-side seating came off the production line followed by the 2 and 4EPBs in the early 1950s.

So yes, capacity was a problem even back in those days but "the railway" found a solution with the resources they had at the time

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If double decker trains are HS1 compatible. Why not just put in a HS1 link next to Folkestone and then upgrade that section round to Dover Priory. While there will be costs associated with this, it would be a good experiment for them to see what is possible, how difficult it would be to implement and see how british people take to them.

The Shakespeare Tunnels under the cliffs between Dover and Folkestone have very tight clearances

And I hate to think what might happen if one starts tampering with the tunnel infrastructure - we've already had one major landslide in recent time