Double decker trains

[6Gman]

I've often wondered if the extra capacity put forward as the main reason for hs2 could be obtained cheaper by opening out the existing to continental gauge for DD stock.
Perhaps the eu could be persuaded to pay towards opening up large parts of the UK network to fit eu standard size trains.
I

Good luck with the engineering possessions needed for work on that scale!

 

[najaB]

...given that international services are probably less likely now even than they were a week ago, given the tragic events in Paris...

That's exactly what the Europeans would have been saying on 8/7/2005 and what everyone was saying about travel to New York on 12/9/2001. Guess what? People still come to London, and people still go to New York. In six months nobody outside those directly affected will even remember the Paris attacks other than on the anniversary.

 

[jopsuk]

Here you go: Le Shuttle Double Deck Carrier Wagon

Weight 62 tonnes, Lenth 26 m. Width 4.1m. Height 5.575m.

Double Deck Loader Wagon

Weight 64 tonnes, Lenth 27.5m. Width 4.1 Height 5.575m.

Light HGV Carrier Wagon

Lenth 20.505m Width 4.1m Height 5.595m

Edit: just noticed sprinterguy beat me to it.

Ta! At 4.1m wide you could just about have 3+3 seating in relative comfort- that's much wider than a Boeing 737 and a bit wider than an Airbus A320, and obviously it's near rectangular in cross section rather than the circular aircraft.

Lets reiterate- to fit even somewhat cramped double deckers like TGV Duplex up an existing UK line would require almost every bridge, every platform and every tunnel to be entirely rebuilt. Could you imagine doing that on the WCML and its "branches"?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That's exactly what the Europeans would have been saying on 8/7/2005 and what everyone was saying about travel to New York on 12/9/2001. Guess what? People still come to London, and people still go to New York. In six months nobody outside those directly affected will even remember the Paris attacks other than on the anniversary.

I meant international services to UK destinations other than London. Personally I'd favour joining the Schengen area which would make a service from Manchester to Köln or Amsterdam possibly viable once HS2 is up and running. I doubt any UK politician would dare to even suggest that in the current climate though.

 

[najaB]

I doubt any UK politician would dare to even suggest that in the current climate though.

Funny thing about climates - they change. I can see the pendulum swinging back to the left, pro-Europe in the next five to ten years.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Funny thing about climates - they change. I can see the pendulum swinging back to the left, pro-Europe in the next five to ten years.

I wish I shared your optimism! Even Corbyn is only lukewarm on EU membership at best (to be fair I share his concerns about the "economic neoliberalism" which seems to be ingrained within the EU, despite being pro-Europe in principle) and there's every chance that the UK won't be a member of the European Union by the time HS2 opens.

 

[Bald Rick]

Leeds for one... Not to mention Euston... Come to think of it, in terms of land-take 200-250m platforms would be more practical everywhere given that international services are probably less likely now even than they were a week ago, given the tragic events in Paris.

Of course that ship (design of the terminal stations) has largely sailed now though.

European interoperability isn't necessarily about running through European services. It's about having a common set of engineering standards so that different suppliers' products are interoperable, and thus cheaper, as it is a lot easier to buy off the shelf.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

European interoperability isn't necessarily about running through European services. It's about having a common set of engineering standards so that different suppliers' products are interoperable, and thus cheaper, as it is a lot easier to buy off the shelf.

But trains aren't built en-masse and picked up from a showroom like cars... Having HS2 built to a broadly standardised gauge for other high speed lines does make sense, and allows things such as double deck stock and a broadly off-the-shelf design. Train length, however is not the same. Siemens or Alstom or whoever would no doubt be happy to supply their products in a variety of lengths and with a reasonable amount of variations required for any given customer without that having a great impact on the cost per unit/per vehicle. No metal will be cut on those trains until the order is in.

Even seemingly identical stock from the same supplier is no guarantee of interoperability anyway: look at those Turbostars being transferred from Scotrail to Southern for example, or indeed anything ever built by Ansaldo!

 

[Bald Rick]

But trains aren't built en-masse and picked up from a showroom like cars...

Except they are... in Europe. Plenty of loco / unit designs that multiple European national railways have ordered off the shelf to a standard design.

Unlike here, where loading gauge, and politicians, interfere considerably.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Except they are... in Europe. Plenty of loco / unit designs that multiple European national railways have ordered off the shelf to a standard design.

Unlike here, where loading gauge, and politicians, interfere considerably.

Really? In that case I will bow to your better knowledge, but I'd have thought that when terms like "off-the-shelf" are used in railway terms it's more a figure of speech. An existing design would still be easier, quicker and cheaper to produce of course but surely still constructed to order rather than Siemens having a big warehouse stocked with vehicles waiting to be purchased or leased!

 

[najaB]

An existing design would still be easier, quicker and cheaper to produce of course but surely still constructed to order rather than Siemens having a big warehouse stocked with vehicles waiting to be purchased or leased!

I think it is the design that is on the shelf, rather than completed units.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I think it is the design that is on the shelf, rather than completed units.

Indeed that's what I thought until Bald Rick suggested otherwise.

 

[Bald Rick]

Indeed that's what I thought until Bald Rick suggested otherwise.

Can't find a source, but reasonably certain that Siemens built lots of locos on spec, and someone did the same for some EMUs. Could be wrong though.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Can't find a source, but reasonably certain that Siemens built lots of locos on spec, and someone did the same for some EMUs. Could be wrong though.

I'm aware it happens occasionally (Two 170s back in the day, and the most recent order of 387s) but even then Bombardier have the order and I assume promise of payment from Porterbrook. Surely that's the exception rather than the rule though...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Funny thing about climates - they change. I can see the pendulum swinging back to the left, pro-Europe in the next five to ten years.

I wish. I think with recent events Schengen may be in its death throes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it is the design that is on the shelf, rather than completed units.

Bit of both - there are loco hire schemes like Dispolok.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Except they are... in Europe. Plenty of loco / unit designs that multiple European national railways have ordered off the shelf to a standard design.

Unlike here, where loading gauge, and politicians, interfere considerably.

The Traxx loco's come to mind here. Plenty of them operating all over Europe.

 

[edwin_m]

Plenty of Traxx, Vectron etc owned by leasing companies and working throughout mainland Europe. The main obstacle is incompatible signalling systems but this will gradually solve itself as more lines are fitted with ERTMS.

Also true on the passenger side, the Stadler FLIRT being an example where very similar units are operating in several countries. And closer to home the Eurostar e320 is the latest version of Siemens's high speed Velaro which is derived from the German ICE.

There will be greater or lesser degree of design variations between individual production runs of these, but the basic design is the same and this not only realises economies of scale but avoids the sort of novel features that tend to introduce unreliability.

 

[jopsuk]

the basic design is the same and this not only realises economies of scale but avoids the sort of novel features that tend to introduce unreliability.

*meaningful look in the direction of AnsaldoBreda*

 

[sarahj]

Nice off the shelf set of locos waiting to be hired.

http://www.mrce.eu/en/fleet/electric-locomotives/siemens-vectron.html

Its a bit like Avis or Hertz, only slightly bigger than a class A fiesta.

 

[RobShipway]

Aren't the class 68's off the shelf?

 

[Domh245]

Anything built for the UK isn't going to be off the shelf, unless it is from a UK specific design. The class 66, and possibly the electrostar family are about as off the shelf as you are going to get

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Anything built for the UK isn't going to be off the shelf, unless it is from a UK specific design. The class 66, and possibly the electrostar family are about as off the shelf as you are going to get

On any design, the development costs will have to be covered by whoever is funding the stock. Any follow-on orders of a broadly similar design will be as "off-the-shelf" as can be. Both Siemens and Bombardier have developed new designs suitable for the UK in order to bid for new orders but actually building the things will still cost a fair bit above and beyond the construction costs. Those costs will ultimately be borne by the owners of the completed stock- in most cases the ROSCOs.

We're getting away from double deck stock now, apologies for my contribution to the diversion!

 

[AM9]

We're getting away from double deck stock now, apologies for my contribution to the diversion!

The net result of this thread is that wholesale rebuilding of a major commuter route to enable double-deck rolling stock has no chance of becoming reality as the resulting gains in route capacity (which may be minimal) would never justify the massive capital cost and disruption of infrastructure changes.

 

[jon0844]

Can you not just stack two 442s?

 

[fairysdad]

Can you not just stack two 442s?

Or bolt a double-decker bus body onto a freight wagon?

 

[WestCoast]

If we are dreaming then I would go for something like the Swiss double desk trains such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_RABe_514, although the Euroliner 3000 such as in the Telegraph feature http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-are-designed-to-help-ease-overcrowding.html look quite good as well.

Stadler KISS would be my recommendation for commuter routes, very high quality.

 

[jon0844]

Or bolt a double-decker bus body onto a freight wagon?

Good replacement option for Pacers.

 

[341o2]

This idea has been tried before with double desk trains within the South East using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_Class_4DD in the late 1940's, but these where not successful due to the cramp conditions.

they had several other problems. soon after their introduction cracks were discovered in the tyres and all wheelsets replaced. Passengers soon started to complain regarding cramped conditions, hard and thin seating and poor ventilation in the upper compartments (due to tight clearances, windows were sealed)

more serious that passengers could be cornered by robbers in the upper compartments, which had no access to the communication cord

 

[jon0844]

Passengers soon started to complain regarding cramped conditions, hard and thin seating...

Now we have 387s for that.

 

[Groningen]

From what i have always heard (and whether it is true i do not kjnow) is that the tunnels on your island are too low to get 2 level trains running.