Double-Deck trains in UK

[Purple Orange]

Double Decker trains are awful. I hope to never see them in the UK.

 

[JKF]

One of the Southern double-deck cars somehow has found its way to the Hunsbury Ironstone Railway site at Northampton.

It was at Northampton & Lamport for a number of years before that as I remember visiting it there in the embryonic days of that railway. There was talk at the time of building a new trailer car for it! Sadly that one has a bit of an absentee owner with no apparent work being done on it, just left to rot.

The other unit is doing a bit better with a keen group having taken over ownership last year after the owner (Edmond) died. The Facebook group is quite active and pre-Covid they were taking a stall around events/model railway shows etc.

Facebook

www.facebook.com

The unit wasn’t cleared to work on many lines back in the day as it was still a bit out of gauge for some of them.

fascinating units really, sometimes feel this is the sort of thing that should be in the NRM as an oddity.

 

[Ianno87]

Double Decker trains are awful. I hope to never see them in the UK.

Depends what sort of Double Deck train you're basing your judgement on. A Double Deck TGV or DB Regional service tends to be a much more pleasant than a Double Deck Paris RER train, for example.

 

[Purple Orange]

Depends what sort of Double Deck train you're basing your judgement on. A Double Deck TGV or DB Regional service tends to be a much more pleasant than a Double Deck Paris RER train, for example.

Both. Neither are as good as their single deck cousins.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

@Purple Orange
Care to explain why you dislike double-deckers?
..
I am an admirer of OVS but I wonder if it was necessary to build the units
Maybe a mock-up could have shown that they were just too tight

In Berlin double-deckers are ubiquitous, they go right through the city stopping at several stations so the Terminal Problem, 800 people trying to hop off at once, does not occur

 

[Purple Orange]

@Purple Orange
Care to explain why you dislike double-deckers?
..
I am an admirer of OVS but I wonder if it was necessary to build the units
Maybe a mock-up could have shown that they were just too tight

In Berlin double-deckers are ubiquitous, they go right through the city stopping at several stations so the Terminal Problem, 800 people trying to hop off at once, does not occur

Simply put, it is space and accessibility. In particular for those who need to use a wheelchair. The space for wheelchairs is reduced significantly on a double decker, usually right by the toilets which is by no means pleasent.

 

[hexagon789]

I ended up finding photos of those when looking into this yesterday - although the group which seemed to look after them hasn't been active on Twitter at least in over a year. I'll have a more in-depth research later.

-Peter

I think SEMG had some photos but I'm not sure

 

[Energy]

Simply put, it is space and accessibility. In particular for those who need to use a wheelchair. The space for wheelchairs is reduced significantly on a double decker, usually right by the toilets which is by no means pleasent.

On the upside they can have level boarding on the bottom level with the floor being flat until the staircases, still not nice being by the toilets though.

 

[Ianno87]

Simply put, it is space and accessibility. In particular for those who need to use a wheelchair. The space for wheelchairs is reduced significantly on a double decker, usually right by the toilets which is by no means pleasent.

I agree - mobility access (not necessarily just wheelchair users, but anybody who has trouble with steps) and general inclusion is a major drawback of double deck trains irrespective of loading gauge.

 

[DustyBin]

It was at Northampton & Lamport for a number of years before that as I remember visiting it there in the embryonic days of that railway. There was talk at the time of building a new trailer car for it! Sadly that one has a bit of an absentee owner with no apparent work being done on it, just left to rot.

The other unit is doing a bit better with a keen group having taken over ownership last year after the owner (Edmond) died. The Facebook group is quite active and pre-Covid they were taking a stall around events/model railway shows etc.

Facebook

www.facebook.com

The unit wasn’t cleared to work on many lines back in the day as it was still a bit out of gauge for some of them.

fascinating units really, sometimes feel this is the sort of thing that should be in the NRM as an oddity.

I’m not sure if they ever ventured off the Charing Cross/Cannon Street to Dartford route? I’d be interested to know if they did ever travel further afield.

I agree with you that at least one carriage should be in the national collection, personally I view these units as being of considerable historic significance. Thankfully two driving cars survive, that’s something at least.

 

[30907]

I’m not sure if they ever ventured off the Charing Cross/Cannon Street to Dartford route? I’d be interested to know if they did ever travel further afield.

In passenger service as far as Gravesend.
The exhaustive record on
https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4DD.html
says they worked to Selhurst and Lancing for maintenance under Special Traffic arrangements (and later to Eastleigh). The LBSC had a generous loading gauge fortunately!

 

[DustyBin]

In passenger service as far as Gravesend.
The exhaustive record on
https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4DD.html
says they worked to Selhurst and Lancing for maintenance under Special Traffic arrangements (and later to Eastleigh). The LBSC had a generous loading gauge fortunately!

Thanks for that, some great info there!

 

[Mikey C]

Those 4DD wouldn't be acceptable today as they had the "death trap" compartments with no gangway anyway...indeed the conventional compartments already had a very high number of seats, due to the lack of corridor/gangway

The double decker Amtrak carriages work well, but then they are massive. Their staircase feels more like that in a building!

 

[Journeyman]

In passenger service as far as Gravesend.
The exhaustive record on
https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4DD.html
says they worked to Selhurst and Lancing for maintenance under Special Traffic arrangements (and later to Eastleigh). The LBSC had a generous loading gauge fortunately!

I've seen a photograph of one at Guildford, on it's way to Eastleigh.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Simply put, it is space and accessibility. In particular for those who need to use a wheelchair. The space for wheelchairs is reduced significantly on a double decker, usually right by the toilets which is by no means pleasent.

Don't the Accessibility rules require that the wheelchair spaces be pretty close to a Universal Access Toilet for fairly obvious reasons?

Sure, there are a number of ways to design this, and some of those designs are better than others. It isn't an unavoidable and inherent flaw universal to all designs of double-deck stock.

Double-deckers aren't the solution to every problem, and haven't been universally adopted in places that do have a loading gauge to accommodate them. But they work well in some places, and for some situations are the best option for increasing capacity.

 

[Ianno87]

Don't the Accessibility rules require that the wheelchair spaces be pretty close to a Universal Access Toilet for fairly obvious reasons?

Sure, there are a number of ways to design this, and some of those designs are better than others. It isn't an unavoidable and inherent flaw universal to all designs of double-deck stock.

Double-deckers aren't the solution to every problem, and haven't been universally adopted in places that do have a loading gauge to accommodate them. But they work well in some places, and for some situations are the best option for increasing capacity.

There is however a difference between a train being designed to meet the letter of accessibility legislation, and a train designed to be truly inclusive.

 

[Purple Orange]

There is however a difference between a train being designed to meet the letter of accessibility legislation, and a train designed to be truly inclusive.

Exactly. On regular intercity trains in the UK the wheelchair spaces are in the carriage with every other passenger, but a double decker will require that these spaces are away from passengers in the vestibule area, where it will feel both separate and a passing point for all passengers at the same time. No doubt, some people will stick their luggage or bikes there too.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2020 ==

Don't the Accessibility rules require that the wheelchair spaces be pretty close to a Universal Access Toilet for fairly obvious reasons?

Sure, there are a number of ways to design this, and some of those designs are better than others. It isn't an unavoidable and inherent flaw universal to all designs of double-deck stock.

Double-deckers aren't the solution to every problem, and haven't been universally adopted in places that do have a loading gauge to accommodate them. But they work well in some places, and for some situations are the best option for increasing capacity.

It’s not just wheelchair users, but those who require aides like walking sticks or prosthetics.

 

[Sprinter107]

There was a guard at my depot, now long retired, who signed them. He was saying they worked just the one route,think it was Gravesend to Cannon Street and Charing Cross via Bexleyheath. He worked those units quite regularly. I wish id have asked more questions about them.

 

[30907]

Exactly. On regular intercity trains in the UK the wheelchair spaces are in the carriage with every other passenger, but a double decker will require that these spaces are away from passengers in the vestibule area, where it will feel both separate and a passing point for all passengers at the same time. No doubt, some people will stick their luggage or bikes there too.

On regional trains in the UK the accessible toilet, wheelchair spaces and other flexible space are likely to be in the same area for practical reasons. The same is true of modern DD regional stock - though the only ones I can visualise (German) mostly have seats in the area too (that surely ought to be required, for a companion/s!)

The main users of DD Intercity stock are SNCF where the accessible area is on the lower deck and SBB who seat them in the catering vehicle - neither with the bike spaces.

 

[Ianno87]

On regional trains in the UK the accessible toilet, wheelchair spaces and other flexible space are likely to be in the same area for practical reasons. The same is true of modern DD regional stock - though the only ones I can visualise (German) mostly have seats in the area too (that surely ought to be required, for a companion/s!)

Better designed stock has the wheelchair space separated from the toilet either by the door vestibule area (e.g. Class 185, next to First Class) or an internal partition with automatic door (e.g. Class 80x).

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

The DB DoStos normally have a disabled toilet in the middle of the lower deck in one vehicle of the set, there is only a narrow passage to get by it, so wheelchair users do have to sit by the toilet
The DoStos come in many different configurations, some have space for luggage upstairs, some have rails for cycles one side downstairs, tip-up seats on the other (no fixed seats downstairs)
Taking cycles is popular, plusminus. Berliners are urged to travel without, and hire a cycle at their destination, a cycle day train ticket costs €6

 

[30907]

The DB DoStos normally have a disabled toilet in the middle of the lower deck in one vehicle of the set, there is only a narrow passage to get by it, so wheelchair users do have to sit by the toilet
The DoStos come in many different configurations, some have space for luggage upstairs, some have rails for cycles one side downstairs, tip-up seats on the other (no fixed seats downstairs)
Taking cycles is popular, plusminus. Berliners are urged to travel without, and hire a cycle at their destination, a cycle day train ticket costs €6

Correction noted - I had in mind that the accessible toilet was nearer the exit doors, maybe that is on older stock.
While it is common mainland European practice to have a multipurpose vehicle in a train (single or double deck, with luggage, cycle, family and accessible space), there is no reason why the accessible-toilet lower deck shouldn't have conventional passenger seating plus 2 or 4 wheelchair spaces.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

The arrangement enables a group of wheelchair users (4-6 or more?) to use the train, often they have able-bodied companions who could use the tip-up seats
Multipurpose areas are good for pushchairs and for travellers with of luggage

There are/have been so many different DoStos, the modern ones are often reconfigured
Tried and failed to post a picture, try searching for class 670, doubledeckers that did not revolutionise rail travel

 

[popeter45]

if you ever wanted to do double decker with good disability access here you would really need to design the train as mostly double decker with the end cars single decker to give better level access

 

[JKF]

if you ever wanted to do double decker with good disability access here you would really need to design the train as mostly double decker with the end cars single decker to give better level access

could work well as single decker driving motors, with space for equipment below a standard level floor (and a hydrogen tank on the roof!)

The double decker commuter units in Sydney were quite decent but obviously a large enough gauge to accommodate them.

Issues around dwell times could be solved if units were used for non-stop services, e.g. London to Manchester or Birmingham direct on HS2 (or double-deck coaches reserved for passengers doing the whole trip only). That or rebuilding stations with platforms on both sides of the stock at different levels...

 

[Ianno87]

if you ever wanted to do double decker with good disability access here you would really need to design the train as mostly double decker with the end cars single decker to give better level access

That's a pretty bold assumption that the end cars don't end up miles from the lift on the platform they stop at, or that you don't end up trying to put a ramp on the narrowest bit of the platform!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

That or rebuilding stations with platforms on both sides of the stock at different levels...

For what I'm about to say, may the good Lord protect me.

What, in Britain, where drivers semi-routinely accept the road into unwired platforms with their electric trains or short bay platforms with their 260m trainsets, and where signallers semi-routinely set the road into those platforms. Good luck getting the right side on the right platform at the right time.

 

[hst43102]

Regarding the Southern 4-DD units, the thought came to my mind that they would have been great for semi-express services, rather than the commuter traffic they were placed on. For example London-Brighton. Travellers making a short journey (Croydon, Purley, Redhill etc) could use the lower "deck", while those on long trips (Gatwick, Brighton) can use the top, reducing the dwell times at most stations on the route. Was this ever tested?

 

[Purple Orange]

That's a pretty bold assumption that the end cars don't end up miles from the lift on the platform they stop at, or that you don't end up trying to put a ramp on the narrowest bit of the platform!

I suppose DD trains will only be on captive HS2 tracks in reality, but the suggestion by @popeter45 is a good one.

That said, with 400m platforms I don’t see the need for double decker 200m trains.

 

[JonasB]

if you ever wanted to do double decker with good disability access here you would really need to design the train as mostly double decker with the end cars single decker to give better level access

That sounds a bit like NS' DD-AR/DDZ, double deck trains with a single deck motor car. Even if the motor car in this case has a slightly raised floor.