Double Deck Buses

[Deerfold]

OP mentioned rest of the world, so my point is valid.

Quite true. But it's not wrong.

 

[Mikey C]

Many cities now have double deckers on tour bus duties. Originally a lot were bought from British operators with doors added on the offside where necessary - I recall finding some ex-Nottingham Volvos in Seville in 2001. However most now seem to be custom-built.

The European standard for maximum road vehicle height is lower than the British one. I suspect this is due to our tradition of having double decker buses and it probably causes some problems for people who want to operate them elsewhere in Europe.

Leaving aside tour buses, I guess Berlin the only European City which uses significant numbers of double deckers on regular services? Their buses are lower than ours I recall.

North America has been a growing market for ADL, I recall travelling on an Enviro500 down the strip at Las Vegas!

 

[gordonthemoron]

Berlin is the only place in Europe apart from UK & Ireland that has double deckers IME

 

[Deerfold]

Berlin is the only place in Europe apart from UK & Ireland that has double deckers IME

Copenhagen has a few. They're used on a couple of peak services. I've caught a couple on either the 250S or 350S service.

http://randomstreets.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/copenhagen-denmark.html

 

[radamfi]

Double deck coaches are used a lot outside the UK, more so than in the UK.

Some examples:

Ecolines from the Baltic States to the rest of Europe including London.

Some express Swiss Postbus services use double deck coaches, for example Bellinzona to Chur.

Liechtenstein Bus use them from Sargans to Vaduz.

Many of the coaches just introduced in Germany (where coach deregulation has recently occurred) are double deck. The coach subsidiary of DB now runs a number of international routes with double decks including the new service from Antwerp to Düsseldorf via Eindhoven:

http://www.treinreiziger.nl/actueel/ic_bus_dusseldorf_-_eindhoven_-_antwerpen_van_start-146296

Bus Éireann run quite a few double deck coaches on its Expressway network.

In the UK, National Express didn't use that many and stopped using them altogether after the Heathrow crash. Most double decks coaches in the UK are run by Stagecoach, including Megabus, Oxford Tube and some express routes in Scotland. Stagecoach normally prefer buying British but have to go to Van Hool for their double decker coaches. Megabus use Van Hools in North America as well. Ulsterbus run some double decks between Belfast and Derry.

Double decks are more suitable for long distance services as slow boarding/alighting times (compared to bendy buses) are not an issue.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Berlin is the only place in Europe apart from UK & Ireland that has double deckers IME

I know Vienna used to have similar double deckers to those in Berlin - not as many as Berlin but they were on a few routes.
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The original remark was that deckers were "almost extinct" in Liverpool, which is clearly incorrect.

4 or 5 routes out of over a hundred sounds pretty close to it to me. I think the Arriva 86 is the only route you would be guaranteed to see a double decker on.

 

[6Gman]

I know Vienna used to have similar double deckers to those in Berlin - not as many as Berlin but they were on a few routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


4 or 5 routes out of over a hundred sounds pretty close to it to me. I think the Arriva 86 is the only route you would be guaranteed to see a double decker on.

A couple of hours on 10th April and I saw 'deckers on 52, 75, 78, 79, 82, 86, 407, 432, 433, 437, 464, 471, 472.

4 or 5 routes?

 

[Mutant Lemming]

A couple of hours on 10th April and I saw 'deckers on 52, 75, 78, 79, 82, 86, 407, 432, 433, 437, 464, 471, 472.

4 or 5 routes?

That would be your absolute maximum - all the 400 series routes only serve the city centre and then head off cross river. The actual Liverpool city routes mentioned are six - one or two more than I summised. The only unusual route and the only one that doesn't serve the South of the city is the 52. Also most of those routes are not exclusivley operated by double deckers. The overwhelming majority of Liverpudlians who travel by bus will travel on a single decker - 20 years ago it was the other way round. You may be lucky in living on one of the few routes that have double deckers but on the whole they are largely a thing of the past.
How many single deckers did you spot for every double decker ?

 

[fowler9]

That would be your absolute maximum - all the 400 series routes only serve the city centre and then head off cross river. The actual Liverpool city routes mentioned are six - one or two more than I summised. The only unusual route and the only one that doesn't serve the South of the city is the 52. Also most of those routes are not exclusivley operated by double deckers. The overwhelming majority of Liverpudlians who travel by bus will travel on a single decker - 20 years ago it was the other way round. You may be lucky in living on one of the few routes that have double deckers but on the whole they are largely a thing of the past.
How many single deckers did you spot for every double decker ?

They really aren't that unusual down the south end of the city, and some of the routes I will mention head up to the North. The 86 and 82 run by Arriva are pretty much exclusively double deck, they are also very frequent. The 79 is pretty much the same. The 60, 61 and 68 are also normally double deck on the routes heading around the ring road from South to North. the 82's and 86's operated by Stagecoach seem to be 50/50 between single and double deck. The 80 which goes past my house is the only route guaranteed to be single deck during office hours through the week to South Parkway.

To put it another way, the main routes to the south of the city are all mostly double deck. The 79, 82 and 86. These cover the main routs out the south end with the 75, 76 and 80 filling in some gaps.

At the risk of being controversial North Liverpool under Sefton Council has more single deck routes because it has a much bigger unemployment problem than Woolton, Mossley Hill and Aigburth. Less people travelling combined with the Northern Line which is quite extensive and frequent in the north of the city.

Catching a double deck bus in the south of Liverpool is pretty much the norm for a lot of people. If you go to the bus station at Liverpool 1 you would see almost a 50/50 split between double and single deckers slightly in favour of single. Whilst single deckers are more widely used double deckers in Liverpool are far from nearly extinct. It depends where you live.

 

[starrymarkb]

There are a large number of Chinese built mock routemasters in one of the Balkan cities (Macedonia IIRC?)

 

[Mutant Lemming]

They really aren't that unusual down the south end of the city,

Would still say they do not operate anywhere near the majority of the services

and some of the routes I will mention head up to the North. The 86 and 82

- 82 is not exclusively run by double deckers, in fact it is impossible because the Runcorn busway clearances don't allow for them so all the 'through' services have to be single deckers
The 79 is pretty much the same

indeed it is as it also operates on the Runcorn busway
. The 60, 61 and 68 are also normally double deck on the routes heading around the ring road from South to North.

Have only seen one double deck on the 61, they are rare on the 68 also - they are one or two on the 60 but they disappear once it goes dark

the 82's and 86's operated by Stagecoach seem to be 50/50 between single and double deck. The 80 which goes past my house is the only route guaranteed to be single deck during office hours through the week to South Parkway.

.

Catching a double deck bus in the south of Liverpool is pretty much the norm for a lot of people

- only if you live on one or two routes.
If you go to the bus station at Liverpool 1 you would see almost a 50/50 split between double and single deckers slightly in favour of single

last time I was there it was more like 95% single deck
. Whilst single deckers are more widely used double deckers in Liverpool are far from nearly extinct. It depends where you live.

I would still maintain theat the vast majority of Liverpool bus passengers travel on single deck vehicles. A visit to any of the depots will show how low the ratio of double deckers in the city really is.

 

[fowler9]

I would still maintain theat the vast majority of Liverpool bus passengers travel on single deck vehicles. A visit to any of the depots will show how low the ratio of double deckers in the city really is.

You are correct to an extent I would say. The Woodend Avenue garage is chocka with double deckers though. I wouldn't say that they are nearly extinct in Liverpool. The 82 which is single decker is the 82a and is only every 30 mins. It is not the main route out through Dingle, Aigburth and Garston to Speke. The 79 is pretty much the same, just the infrequent services that go beyond Merseyside aren't double deck. The 60, 61 and 68 I will dispute. Especially the 60. Deffo almost always double deck.

And it is definitely not a 95 to 5 percent split at Liverpool 1. Maybe at Queens Square,

 

[W-on-Sea]

Skopje, Macedonia, has bizarre red double-deckers that look like some bizarre space-age reinvention of the Routemaster, but with all the curves ironed out.

 

[Passenger John]

Photographed in Gibralta in 2011

 

[daikilo]

Photographed in Gibralta in 2011

As a thread which got off track this is a good one. The question was whether any other country had more deckers and the second post suggested Hong Kong.

I don't actually know the answer, but it is one of these two.

If you now want to discuss the merits of double v. single deck then a new thread would seem to be appropriate. In essence it is short and high v. long and one-deck. Mr. B Johnson has his own opinions on this.

 

[fowler9]

As a thread which got off track this is a good one. The question was whether any other country had more deckers and the second post suggested Hong Kong.

I don't actually know the answer, but it is one of these two.

If you now want to discuss the merits of double v. single deck then a new thread would seem to be appropriate. In essence it is short and high v. long and one-deck. Mr. B Johnson has his own opinions on this.

Actually the original question was not if any other country had more double deckers than London. It was if London has more double deckers than the whole rest of the world put together, I am pretty sure it doesn't. And many of Hong Kongs double deckers are pretty long having three axles.

 

[Springs Branch]

Singapore has a pretty large fleet of double-deckers, including some triple axles. Not as many buses as Hong Kong, I'm sure, but Singapore will still make a significant contribution towards the "Rest of World" total.

 

[Robertj21a]

Singapore has a pretty large fleet of double-deckers, including some triple axles. Not as many buses as Hong Kong, I'm sure, but Singapore will still make a significant contribution towards the "Rest of World" total.

As will Berlin, Dublin, China and much of the UK outside London.

 

[fowler9]

I saw an old Bristol VR in Auckland on a tourist shuttle, not sure if that counts. That was about the only double decker I saw in New Zealand if I am not mistaken.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Singapore has a pretty large fleet of double-deckers, including some triple axles. Not as many buses as Hong Kong, I'm sure, but Singapore will still make a significant contribution towards the "Rest of World" total.

I did kind of concede that Hong Kong definitely swayed it for London v the World - and even UK with the Lothian, Translink Metro and First/Stagecoach Scottish fleets.
I still think it is a close call as to whether the majority of England's double deckers are in London though.

 

[fowler9]

Hey Mutant Lemming, I happened across Woodend Avenue garage this evening and got you a photo of the nearly extinct double deckers in Liverpool. Ha ha. I am happy to share on here if my photo of an Arriva garage doesn't interfere with forum rules. It is about 90% to 10% double deckers to single deckers.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Hey Mutant Lemming, I happened across Woodend Avenue garage this evening and got you a photo of the nearly extinct double deckers in Liverpool. Ha ha. I am happy to share on here if my photo of an Arriva garage doesn't interfere with forum rules. It is about 90% to 10% double deckers to single deckers.

I have a picture of Green Lane in the halcyon days of the MPTE when it was 95% atlantean - today there aren't any double deck buses. I still stand by the comment that the overwhelming majority of Liverpool bus passengers travel on single deck vehicles and in the large urban sprawl of the Eastern suburbs and housing estates from Huyton to Stockbridge to Croxteth and most of the Northern suburbs they ARE extinct.
There was a time when there were 1100 double deck buses in the city it is now less than 100. Okay maybe not quite extinct but it is a small minority in a city that was once a double deck stronghold.

 

[fowler9]

I have a picture of Green Lane in the halcyon days of the MPTE when it was 95% atlantean - today there aren't any double deck buses. I still stand by the comment that the overwhelming majority of Liverpool bus passengers travel on single deck vehicles and in the large urban sprawl of the Eastern suburbs and housing estates from Huyton to Stockbridge to Croxteth and most of the Northern suburbs they ARE extinct.
There was a time when there were 1100 double deck buses in the city it is now less than 100. Okay maybe not quite extinct but it is a small minority in a city that was once a double deck stronghold.

Well all I can say is pop down to Woodend Avenue garage because it is a massive stronghold. I really don't know how it works business wise but once you get to Huyton and Bootle it is Sefton council. Get the bus down the South end and it is Liverpool. Shed loads of double deckers!

 

[Liam]

In Fife, Aberhill's normal fleet contains about 40 double deckers. The rest of the Aberhill fleet is about 10 Solo's and 20 coaches.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Well all I can say is pop down to Woodend Avenue garage because it is a massive stronghold. I really don't know how it works business wise but once you get to Huyton and Bootle it is Sefton council. Get the bus down the South end and it is Liverpool. Shed loads of double deckers!

Green lane is the largest bus depot in the city (most definitely within the city boundaries) from which most of the Huyton (which is in the borough of Knowsley, along with Halewood and some extremities of the Southern suburbs) services operate from.

Overall you are talking around 100 or so double deckers and if they all operate along a core corridor of three or four routes then it may appear that there are plenty of them if you are on those routes but most of the city's routes and suburbs never see a double decker.

 

[fowler9]

Green lane is the largest bus depot in the city (most definitely within the city boundaries) from which most of the Huyton (which is in the borough of Knowsley, along with Halewood and some extremities of the Southern suburbs) services operate from.

Overall you are talking around 100 or so double deckers and if they all operate along a core corridor of three or four routes then it may appear that there are plenty of them if you are on those routes but most of the city's routes and suburbs never see a double decker.

That is true mate. I am wondering if the other councils the buses serve have any effect on it? It may of course have no impact at all. Just hoping someone with more knowledge than me may have an answer.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

That is true mate. I am wondering if the other councils the buses serve have any effect on it? It may of course have no impact at all. Just hoping someone with more knowledge than me may have an answer.

It isn't really the councils who stipulate what type of bus can be operated. Merseytravel decide on how 'accessible' vehicles should be with regards to the relevant Disability Acts but it is the individual companies who decide whether those vehicles should be single or double deckers.
The five Merseyside councils (Liverpool, Wirral, St.Helens, Sefton and Knowsley) all have representatives on the Merseytravel 'committee' and from 1st April of this year Halton borough (Widnes & Runcorn) is also part of the combined Merseytravel authority..

 

[fowler9]

It isn't really the councils who stipulate what type of bus can be operated. Merseytravel decide on how 'accessible' vehicles should be with regards to the relevant Disability Acts but it is the individual companies who decide whether those vehicles should be single or double deckers.
The five Merseyside councils (Liverpool, Wirral, St.Helens, Sefton and Knowsley) all have representatives on the Merseytravel 'committee' and from 1st April of this year Halton borough (Widnes & Runcorn) is also part of the combined Merseytravel authority..

Ah right, I was just wondering. I seemed to remember reading somewhere that Liverpool council had some say on the number of 156's used in to Liverpool (Apologies if that is completely incorrect) and was wondering if the councils had some say on what buses were used. Thanks for the info.

 

[edwin_m]

The local authorities via Merseytravel have a stake in specifying and funding local train services, on both Merseyrail and local Northern networks. However bus services are provided commercially and the principle in Britain outside London is that any operator can run any bus anywhere they feel they could make money by doing so.

Local authorities have some influence through various "quality bus" arrangements where operators agree to comply with certain standards in return for the councils modifying the roads to provide more bus priority. Also councils can step in to fund services on routes or at times of day with no commercial service, and can specify the service in detail through the contract. However these aren't allowed to compete with commercial services, so will always remain a small proportion of the total service even if councils get the money and the desire for them to play a bigger part.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

It's a shame that many of the municipal liveries weren't part of the stipulation for bus operation although at the time of deregulation it was a 'cheap is king' philosophy. A part of local identity was lost - Liverpool's green buses as seen on the Penny Lane video, Newcastle's yellow buses on the credits to 'Whatever happened to Likely Lads' and Accrington's blue & red - a tribute to the Accrington Pals lost in the First World War. All that history and heritage lost to the coporate muck of the big comglomerates. Sorry, am going in to miserable old moaning get mode.
(although admittedly a lot of it was lost to the PTEs comformity strategy first)