Double charged for ticket at self service machine.

[MikeBrit]

I have long avoided using the self service ticket machines on account of the negative stories I have heard about them, however today with a long queue at the one open counter (during rush hour) I had little choice.

I wished to purchase a seven day Southern rail season ticket between Bexhill and Lewes which costs £31.60. I went through the procedure, confirmed and put my debit card in, the PIN was accepted, however the screen flashed up "The has been a printer malfunction, your card has NOT been charged, please purchase your ticket elsewhere". Nothing came out of the printer. I therefore moved to the other machine at the station and purchased my ticket there, this time everything went correctly.

However, this evening I looked at my bank account online and saw that the payment had been deducted twice. I rang my bank and they confirmed that there had been no faults at their end and that the second payment was taken two minutes after the first and that both had gone through completely and thus it was a certainty that I was in fact charged for the first one.

Obviously I am very unhappy about this, how taking money from a card after informing the customer that no money had been taken and not providing any product or service in return counts as anything other than debit card fraud and theft I do not know, and would like to know the best procedure for recovering my money. I have the ticket and also through some miracle retained the receipt for the second transaction, however obviously as the printer was broken I have no confirmation at all of the first (other than the disappearance of the money from my account). Is this something a customer service assistant could address over the counter or am I going to have to waste my time and money writing and sending a letter and then wait weeks for a response?

I am also considering requesting additional money to cover the costs of my time, stationary and telephone calls to resolve this issue, as were the shoe on the other foot and I made a mistake with my ticket I have no doubt Southern rail would have no qualms levying penalty charges against me. How much do you think it would be reasonable to demand?

Also which independent regulatory authority should I make a complaint to.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[causton]

Sorry, but have you spoken to Southern at all? Or have you just come on here threatening to tell 'regulatory authorities' about what was an honest mistake by the ticket machine - I am sure it did was not programmed to take your money...

...I am also surprised your bank did not help more when you asked them. I was charged twice for a domain name and my bank (through Visa) instantly gave me back the duplicate charge if Southern do not help you may wish to ask the bank to see if there is more they can do!

How about you just go to the station and ask there to see what they say as a preliminary exercise, instead of going about as if some Southern employee has pocketed your cash on purpose?

Get an online statement (or ministatement from an ATM) showing the two identical charges on the same day... and I presume the TVM makes a log of the transactions and whether any faults occur... it may be that the money has been refunded to your account which can take a few days in a separate transaction as well...

i.e. Authorise card payment -> Attempt to issue tickets -> Failure to issue tickets -> Process a refund. When I have got a refund (from FCC*) it took 3 days to show up and I believe the bank have no record of it before it is processed fully.

*swapping a Y-P discounted ticket for a non-discounted one before travel due to forgetting my railcard!

 

[MikeBrit]

I dont see how a machine can make an honest mistake. If we are ascribing human actions to a machine, what it did was tell me a nice honest lie, one which had the amount been greater or the circumstances different could have had severe and damaging financial repercussions. However, allowing a machine to charge for a non-existent ticket is either criminal or criminally incompetent on behalf of southern rail. I believe Southern rail to be a squalid excuse for a service and have a catalogue of complaints as long as my arm which I have thus far bit my tongue about sending in, but as a result I am indisposed to be forgiving in this instance. The damage has already been done so regardless of how this is resolved I will still be registering a complaint, however I am unsure as to who would be the best body to complain to and thus I would appreciate guidance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Get an online statement (or ministatement from an ATM) showing the two identical charges on the same day... and I presume the TVM makes a log of the transactions and whether any faults occur... it may be that the money has been refunded to your account which can take a few days in a separate transaction as well...

i.e. Authorise card payment -> Attempt to issue tickets -> Failure to issue tickets -> Process a refund. When I have got a refund (from FCC*) it took 3 days to show up and I believe the bank have no record of it before it is processed fully.

*swapping a Y-P discounted ticket for a non-discounted one before travel due to forgetting my railcard!

Sorry, this part of your post was added by edit and did not appear until after I made the reply above, this is useful and sensible advise and I thank you for it.

As the card used was debit rather than credit card my bank said I did not have the ability to automatically reverse the payment but they did say I could contact them and request they act on my behalf should Southern prove unco-operative.

 

[causton]

Apologies for the late adding of that information, didn't realise I left it out until it was too late! I realised I phrased it a bit wrongly at first...

Indeed my card is a debit card as well (the one relevant to my story) which can sometimes make it harder for you to successfully get the money back but as your bank said, they can always help you.

If, and only if, there has not been a refund applied to your account, I would definitely consider a complaint. I would personally pin the blame on the programmers who coded the software for the TVM for allowing it to display those lies. I am sure there are people on this forum (maybe not awake at this time!) who are experienced in these sort of letters and will help you draft one and send it off to the relevant people

If there actually was a refund, I would tell Southern, maybe not as a complaint, to maybe reword the phrasing of the message you were shown, to ensure people are not misled. Of course, "your card has not been charged" and "your card has been charged but you will get the money back in a couple of days" is a very different thing, and I would ask them to reword the message to state the latter and/or to ask a station staff member for clarification, of course making sure the staff members know the process!

 

[185]

I'd probably be looking at approaching Southern and demanding a settlement. I know of one other company that initially tried to pass the buck, then later admitted doing exactly this with a TVM, if I recall paying out £300 for a £12.70 fare they'd double-charged after a paper-jam in their machine.

 

[t0ffeeman]

There is a "service" called chargeback from Visa/Mastercard for debit cards and transactions below £100 for credit cards. Full details are available on Martins Savings Expert site.

Obviously try to resolve through Southern first.

 

[IanXC]

I would suggest calling Southern and expaining what has happened. If they are not cooperative I would get straight back in touch with the bank and request they undertake a chargeback.

Whilst the bank was right that it is not required to undertake a chargeback as the payment was not by credit card, and not for £100+, most banks in the UK now issue Visa debit cards which specifically include this facility for all payment values.

 

[LondonJohn]

Firstly, I don't think that you have been double charged. I think the TVM might have authorised both transactions which is preventing you from spending the £31.60 from the first transaction as for all intents and purposes your bank don't know that at this stage you did not do both transactions, they simply know a retailer has got 2 authorisations.

I expect the first transaction will not go through at the close of business tomorrow, ie the day after the transaction as Southern will NOT present an electronic voucher request for payment to your bank. The "authorisation" obtained in error will stay preventing you from spending this amount of money for a few working days. I expect it will be back in your available balance on Friday night/Saturday morning dependant on the bank.

If I am wrong and the transactions DO go through twice, indeed go to Southern and get them to deal with this matter.

There is not independent regulatory body that would deal with this commercial contract that you have agreed to.

I do think mountain and molehill are two words that come to light here.. Of course if you do think you have been wronged you can sue for damages and distress and out of pocket expenses although from this post it would seem that you have misrepresented the facts here starting to throw big words around to get the sympathy card. If these facts are not correct (Southern took the money out of my account twice), be prepared for a counter action.



If you do complain to Southern however, don't take the tack or tone of your posts on here as they have done nothing criminal wrong, neither has debit card fraud happened either. indeed at this point in time and correct me if I am wrong they have not taken the money from your account twice. Your bank have confirmed to you that two "authorisations" have been made. One will drop off in a few days. Mildly inconvenient yes but not the end of the world.

 

[causton]

Firstly, I don't think that you have been double charged. I think the TVM might have authorised both transactions which is preventing you from spending the £31.60 from the first transaction as for all intents and purposes your bank don't know that at this stage you did not do both transactions, they simply know a retailer has got 2 authorisations.

I was thinking this as well, but would hope that the bank would notice the difference between 2 authorisations and 2 charges...
...wait, the charges wouldn't have gone through by this point. So the bank have "lied" as there has simply been an authorisation placed at this point surely?

 

[IanXC]

Firstly, I don't think that you have been double charged. I think the TVM might have authorised both transactions which is preventing you from spending the £31.60 from the first transaction as for all intents and purposes your bank don't know that at this stage you did not do both transactions, they simply know a retailer has got 2 authorisations.

Your bank have confirmed to you that two "authorisations" have been made. One will drop off in a few days. Mildly inconvenient yes but not the end of the world.

I was thinking this as well, but would hope that the bank would notice the difference between 2 authorisations and 2 charges...
...wait, the charges wouldn't have gone through by this point. So the bank have "lied" as there has simply been an authorisation placed at this point surely?

I agree that this could be what has gone on, it would explain why the bank said they could not help at this point. Its not impossible for the debits to have been processed, but it would be unusual.

 

[LondonJohn]

I was thinking this as well, but would hope that the bank would notice the difference between 2 authorisations and 2 charges...
...wait, the charges wouldn't have gone through by this point. So the bank have "lied" as there has simply been an authorisation placed at this point surely?

I work for a bank so deal with this nearly daily. It seems from your postings that 2 "authorisations were obtained". In your bank's eyes this is a guarantee that they have to pay Southern when presented with an electronic payment voucher, so your bank have to assume that both transactions are genuine.

Your bank *COULD* if they *WANTED* to cancel one of these authorisations and make the monies available for you to spend again. The risk to them if they do this and the retailer (in this case Southern) do present BOTH transactions the bank would have to honour them, putting you overdrawn if you have not got the monies. Please note the bank are under NO OBLIGATION to do this as for all they know you have spent the 2 lots of monies.

I don't think the bank lied to you.. It depends what question you asked them and the context of the conversation.


The retailer can indeed request the authorisation be removed. This usually takes one working day for it to happen and is sometimes done by hotels when you check out if your bill is less than the amount they preauthorised on arrival. I am guessing that the station would not do this it would need to be done at a head office level and by the time this got through the authorisation would have dropped off automatically.

In view of the amount, if you were working and posed no credit risk I would have personally cancelled the apparent duplicate authorisation if I had been your bank today.

I am sure it will all work out but send me a private message if you do need help once you have posted 5 times.

 

[bb21]

As others have said, contact Southern and see what they say. It should be quite obvious to them that it was a duplicate purchase and they should have a log of printer faults for the TVMs so they should be able to validate your story.

As for the additional compensation, to be honest I wouldn't bother. All it takes is for you to make a phone call or write a letter, and I fail to see how much time that would take you and how that warrants additional compensation. (As they say, sh*t happens in life. You can't go chasing after every organisation that makes a mistake for compensation without giving them a chance to make things right in the first place.) If Southern were uncooperative in the process then I would consider it appropriate to request the reimbursement of additional expenses if you have to write a large number of letters or make a large number of phone calls.

And regulatory body? No one will take your case on if you have not given Southern a chance yet to sort things out.

 

[wijit]

Just for information, yes you can add a value to letters/phone calls etc. regarding this situation. However, You would do well to heed the advice above and contact the TOC.
If you can show that there has been a loss suffered by yourself due to the first charge still being processed ( which it has to do, before you can be refunded) then you are entitled to add a value to correspondence. Don't try to play the string instrument though, really it isn't worth it. Extctly the same thing happens in retail shops every day.

 

[island]

I dont see how a machine can make an honest mistake. If we are ascribing human actions to a machine, what it did was tell me a nice honest lie, one which had the amount been greater or the circumstances different could have had severe and damaging financial repercussions. However, allowing a machine to charge for a non-existent ticket is either criminal or criminally incompetent on behalf of southern rail. I believe Southern rail to be a squalid excuse for a service and have a catalogue of complaints as long as my arm which I have thus far bit my tongue about sending in, but as a result I am indisposed to be forgiving in this instance. The damage has already been done so regardless of how this is resolved I will still be registering a complaint, however I am unsure as to who would be the best body to complain to and thus I would appreciate guidance.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, this part of your post was added by edit and did not appear until after I made the reply above, this is useful and sensible advise and I thank you for it.

As the card used was debit rather than credit card my bank said I did not have the ability to automatically reverse the payment but they did say I could contact them and request they act on my behalf should Southern prove unco-operative.

I think you need to wind your neck in to be honest mate. I would very strongly suspect that at most the machine has made two authorisations against your card, one of which will drop off within a few days, the other being posted as a transaction. There is no criminal behaviour involved, nor criminal incompetence (which is not in any case a legal term). Just a simple mistake, which if it doesn't correct itself automatically, will very likely be corrected with a simple phone call.

The bank is currently acting correctly. It cannot do anything until and unless the charges are banked, at which point it can (and indeed, under the Payment Services Regulations, must) investigate the matter and reverse the charge unless the merchant can prove that you did in fact execute two transactions.

Threatening to report to an alleged regulatory authority at this early stage really isn't going to speed things up, and as mentioned above, most if not all such bodies will not deal with your complaint unless you raise it directly with the complained-about party first.

And also as above it would be a bit over the top to demand compensation for the cost of phone calls/letters/stationery, unless they drag the matter out.

[Aside: This may arise from the interesting decision by NatWest and a couple of other banks to trial showing pending debit card transactions as though they were genuine confirmed transactions. This could generate similar issues if one presented the debit card at check-in at a hotel.]

 

[maniacmartin]

I too suspect its just a duplicate authorisation, but if so its poor service from the bank for describing the transaction as fully completed, and bad wording from the TVM not making this clear

 

[tractorboy1]

Hi

Sorry, what was the conclusion of this issue? Was the 2nd charge taken off?
I've just had a similar experience - insomuch as the machine didnt have any cards left to print on and so I didn't get my tickets out, it said I wouldn't get charged but my bank statement indicates otherwise at the moment. Obviously pretty annoying to chase up, especially at this time of the year

Thanks,

Ed

 

[causton]

Bank statement - Is this online or printed? How long ago did it happen? I would assume that the OP's issue was resolved satisfactorily in the end but this sounds like the transaction has been fully completed if it's on a statement...

 

[snail]

I've just had a similar experience - insomuch as the machine didnt have any cards left to print on and so I didn't get my tickets out, it said I wouldn't get charged but my bank statement indicates otherwise at the moment.

As the OP has only made 2 posts it looks like they came here to rant and have gone away.

The earlier advice looks sound to me. The machine has to authorise payment before it prints the tickets. If there is a problem the transaction will be reversed, but with a debit card it could appear on your bank statement as a debit followed a few days later by a credit. (Credit cards are the same but 'pending transactions' are hidden from view).

Is it a Visa card? If your refund doesn't show up within a week or so you can ask your bank for a chargeback on the grounds you didn't receive the goods. Some banks are reluctant to do this but Visa debit do allow it.

 

[barrykas]

Depending on the type of machine, the Ticket Office may have been able to interrogate "the system" (it's certainly possible with Shere FAST machines, though may involve calling another office if the Supervisor Terminal isn't at that station) to determine what happened the first time round.

Assuming the transaction was authorised okay, but there was some kind of problem preventing the ticket being issued, the auth would be released at the end of the day when it does the banking and sees the ticket wasn't issued, though when that money becomes available again depends on your bank.

 

[tractorboy1]

My incident only happened yesterday, just that the fee is missing from my "Available Balance"....all my transactions seem to take a day or two to actually appear on my online statement as an item.

Hopefully it will all be resolved simply !

 

[starrymarkb]

I get that a lot with hotels. I book through Booking.com and give my credit card. But then will often pay cash.. My card is authorised and so it appears as a Pending transaction and then drops off a few days later. Pay at Pump things at Petrol Stations are the same, they preauthorise for £100 and then you are credited the difference between the Preauth and what you actually bought.

 

[Roverman]

I work for a bank so deal with this nearly daily. It seems from your postings that 2 "authorisations were obtained". In your bank's eyes this is a guarantee that they have to pay Southern when presented with an electronic payment voucher, so your bank have to assume that both transactions are genuine.

Your bank *COULD* if they *WANTED* to cancel one of these authorisations and make the monies available for you to spend again. The risk to them if they do this and the retailer (in this case Southern) do present BOTH transactions the bank would have to honour them, putting you overdrawn if you have not got the monies. Please note the bank are under NO OBLIGATION to do this as for all they know you have spent the 2 lots of monies.

I don't think the bank lied to you.. It depends what question you asked them and the context of the conversation.


The retailer can indeed request the authorisation be removed. This usually takes one working day for it to happen and is sometimes done by hotels when you check out if your bill is less than the amount they preauthorised on arrival. I am guessing that the station would not do this it would need to be done at a head office level and by the time this got through the authorisation would have dropped off automatically.

In view of the amount, if you were working and posed no credit risk I would have personally cancelled the apparent duplicate authorisation if I had been your bank today.

I am sure it will all work out but send me a private message if you do need help once you have posted 5 times.

+1

An excellent reply LondonJohn and exactly what I would say if I was the colleague dealing with it, the main issue with debit card authorisations is that retail staff generally have no idea how it all works and have got the stock response of "talk to your bank" which seems to be used a 'panacea of all ills' these days.

In my experience these double debits sort themselves out within the 5 working days or sooner if the retailer knows how to get them cancelled.

 

[ffm]

I had a similar issue with a web booking, due to the loss of connection part way through the confirmation section. As with the descriptions above my bank confirmed they had two authorisations, but only one (the completed one) was ever charged by the TOC. I rather think that Mickbrit has overreacted and maybe should rename himself as Mr Angry?

 

[causton]

+1

An excellent reply LondonJohn and exactly what I would say if I was the colleague dealing with it, the main issue with debit card authorisations is that retail staff generally have no idea how it all works and have got the stock response of "talk to your bank" which seems to be used a 'panacea of all ills' these days.

Indeed - someone at my work told someone once the money was refunded onto their card they could immediately spend it again! Not wishing to put the person into their overdraft/decline their transactions I corrected them!