Double back

[b0b]

How does one determine what stations a "fast" train passes through so they can determine which stations/routes would cause a double back?

 

[Helvellyn]

Have you a specific journey in mind here? Might be easier to answer the question with more information.

 

[b0b]

Have you a specific journey in mind here? Might be easier to answer the question with more information.

No, the point is the general question. How can somebody determine this without needing "local knowledge".

 

[tony_mac]

Have you looked at the maps in the timetable?

I am also fairly sure there are some cases where you can't know, without having local information.
Birmingham to Cheltenham is one that springs to mind, but I haven't looked this up in the timetable. (Some pass through Five ways / University, some don't)

 

[b0b]

I am also fairly sure there are some cases where you can't know, without having local information.

So how is somebody supposed to know what ticket to buy?

 

[tony_mac]

The online journey planners or staff will tell you.

In general, I don't think it's actually enforced anyway, as you say, how are people supposed to know which route a train takes?

Here is an example from National Rail:

17:12 Selly Oak - Birmingham New St (via University and Five ways)
17:42 Birmingham New St - Cheltenham Spa (no intermediate stops)
This journey is fine.

17:42 Selly Oak - Birmingham New St (via University and Five ways)
18:12 Birmingham New St - Cheltenham Spa (no intermediate stops)
You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey.

 

[b0b]

Let's say you're "caught" in progress of a double back (ie. you're on a train that is going to pass "fast" through a station that's on the only way back), you can't be excessed, since you need 2 tickets to complete your journey, correct? so are you considered to have no ticket in that case, with all that brings, or is there some sort of leniency as you're being overcarried?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think it would depend where the guard checked your ticket and how he interpreted the situation. For example, if it was on the first train, before you double backed, but he knew you would have to double back, he could issue an excess based on the combined fare of the two tickets you should hold (off route) or issue a new ticket for the portion of the journey not covered by the ticket (off route to a new destination). If it was on the train after you had double backed I think only the former would apply.

I'm sure one of the guards on here will comfirm that or correct me.

 

[b0b]

Here's a concrete example: A ticket thats any permitted from St Albans to Anerley. One obvious way to go is the Thameslink service from St Albans to East Croydon to Anerley, which is allowed on map LB, and would be valid on certain services that go between Blackfriars and East Croydon via Tulse Hill. However off peak they go via London Bridge and hence would pass through Anerley.

If you were unlucky to be inspected between London Bridge and East Croydon, what would happen?

And more importantly, how would a customer know before hand that they would be doubling back in the first place (I have local knowledge that off peak TL services pass through Anerley)

Anyone with access to the FRPP, what does it say?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

In that instance over-riding would be the reason for the excess.....

Over-riding - Travelling beyond the destination on the ticket

A customer travelling beyond the destination on the ticket should charged a full single or return for the additional journey. If it is cheaper, the difference in fare between the fare already paid and the price of the full single or return fare for the journey from their originating station to their destination station may be charged.

I don't know about the customer, but staff would know it was going through Anerley because it would either stop at London Bridge (via Anerley) or not (via Tulse Hill).

 

[Nick W]

The answer, and the only answer, of course is to use an online journey planner, because they connect to the authoritative source to which the public and TOC staff have no access!

Now my experience shows that they act based on the stations recorded as passing places for train services. Therefore, the journey planner will not let you book a journey where two trains have the same pass-through station listed (unless there's an easement). Interestingly this means that there will be cases where doubling back is allowed simply because RJIS doesn't list all pass-though stations.

I'm pretty sure the penalty for contravening this would always be that issued for travelling off-route. After all, how can you be sold an extra ticket from a station the train didn't stop at?

 

[yorkie]

I'm pretty sure the penalty for contravening this would always be that issued for travelling off-route. After all, how can you be sold an extra ticket from a station the train didn't stop at?

You can't, but you could be (over distance) excessed. An excess makes the old ticket become whatever the new ticket is, so there is of course no requirement for the train to call at the destination of the original ticket. I'm not saying that is what they would/should do, and in most cases common sense would hopefully be applied.