Double Back Question

[b0b]

More fun: Taking map CL for a minute: Can you travel between Shotton and Bolton via this route:

Shotton -> Chester -> Runcorn Group -> Hooton -> Runcorn Group -> Warrington Group -> Hunts Cross Group -> Warrington Group -> Wigan Group -> Bolton

Note the "Warrington Group -> Hunts Cross Group -> Warrington Group" part, is that not valid and why? It seems not valid except that the NRG Instructios states:

"A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including
doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes
between their origin and destination stations."

 

[yorkie]

You can double back within a group, nothing more!

e.g. I can do York-Hull with a double back within Leeds group. I can't double back beyond Leeds to another group.

 

[b0b]

I just realized the obvious answer is no, so lets just say, to understand the question better, that there are no intermediate stations that are not in the Warrington or Hunts Cross groups

 

[Mojo]

There are three different types of groups; routeing point groups for routeing, station groups for ticketing (eg. Birmingham Stns, London Terminals) and station groups for doubling back (the rule you have quoted).

The list of stations is here: http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/group_stations.pdf and provided both the origin and destination are outside the group and the group is on a permitted route then you may doubleback (eg. you can go from Derby to Montpelier doubling back via Stapleton Road).

 

[yorkie]

When I said there were 3 group types, I was corrected on here and told there were only 2 group types, with the Routeing Point Groups being the same as groups within which you can double back. Is this not the case after all?

 

[b0b]

I realised I asked the question rather inelegently so lets try this again:

on a trip like "Warrington Group -> Hunts Cross Group -> Warrington Group", is that automatically ruled out as a double back, or am I required to check the stations on the route and rule it out if and only if I find a double back through a station thats neither in the Warrington or Hunts Cross group?

I'm sure there was an example in the Routeing guide where you could pass through the same group twice because the obvious changing point was at a junction station one station outside the group ...

ie. A and B are in the same group, and C is outside, you could travel through A to C, and change and go back through the group via B.

but I can't find the example now.

 

[yorkie]

You cannot double back from Warrington Group, to anywhere else, back to Warrington Group. Once you leave Warrington Group, that's it - you can't go back there!

As for your A, B, & C example, if you are going from A to C, you cannot double-back between A and B, because although I said earlier you can double back within a group, as Mojo added this is only if your ticket is for a journey where BOTH the origin AND the destination are OUTSIDE the group.

e.g. Church Fenton - South Milford is valid for double back between Leeds & Micklefield.

Micklefield - South Milford is NOT valid for double back between Leeds & Micklefield (although on Sundays there may be an issue with that but let's not go there now!)

Church Fenton - Micklefield is NOT valid for double back between Leeds & Micklefield

 

[John @ home]

The doubling back rule prevents you travelling through the same station more than once, unless some other rule allows it. It does not prohibit travelling through a station in a group, leaving the group, and then travelling through a different station in the same group, as long as the journey is following a permitted route.

An example would be Shotts - Hamilton Central via Bellshill, where the route is Shotts - Holytown (a member of Motherwell Group) - Bellshill (not a member of Motherwell Group) - Motherwell (a second member of Motherwell Group) - Hamilton. In this instance, Shotts and Hamilton Central have a common Routeing Point, Motherwell Group. Therefore the Permitted Route is direct from Shotts to Holytown and direct from Motherwell to Hamilton Central. Holytown to Motherwell via Bellshill is permitted due to the pattern of service. On Sundays there is no direct service between the two members of the group.

 

[yorkie]

The doubling back rule prevents you travelling through the same station more than once, unless some other rule allows it. It does not prohibit travelling through a station in a group, leaving the group, and then travelling through a different station in the same group, as long as the journey is following a permitted route.

Actually, yes you're right! But I suspect that this is an 'oversight' by ATOC. They obviously don't intend people to double back in this way. I would expect many guards to not accept it also. It is utterly illogical. But, I have to concede, it is valid after all!

 

[John @ home]

They obviously don't intend people to double back in this way.

But I don't think it is doubling back. The route doesn't pass through any station more than once.

Rather than that, I think all three stations - Bellshill, Holytown and Motherwell - should have been members of the group in the first place.

 

[yorkie]

But I don't think it is doubling back. The route doesn't pass through any station more than once.

Rather than that, I think all three stations - Bellshill, Holytown and Motherwell - should have been members of the group in the first place.

Yes, it's not "doubling back" as defined in the RG, providing the same station isn't passed through more than once as you say.

But it is "doubling back" from a geographical & 'common sense' view, looking at a map.

When determining validity, what matters is what's defined in the RG, so it's valid. However when a guard checks a ticket, they are more likely to - at least initially - think in geographical terms. Therefore, expect a 'discussion' with the guard if going west from Warrington to Hunts Cross on a ticket for a journey heading east from Shotton to Bolton

Myself and a few others have a saying; There are valid tickets that look invalid, and there are invalid tickets that look valid. And there's tickets that are in between!

 

[b0b]

Thanks for the quick responses everybody. That is unfortunate news, as I suspected, in theory you could double back between Warrington Group and Hunts Cross group as many times as you like unless there are intermediate stations outside either group.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the quick responses everybody. That is unfortunate news, as I suspected, in theory you could double back between Warrington Group and Hunts Cross group as many times as you like unless there are intermediate stations outside either group.

As many times as you like? Only if there were as many routes as you like... !

 

[b0b]

As many times as you like? Only if there were as many routes as you like... !

It depends on the definition of doubling back: "A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations".

 

[John @ home]

That is unfortunate news, as I suspected, in theory you could double back between Warrington Group and Hunts Cross group as many times as you like unless there are intermediate stations outside either group.

Sorry I don't understand this theory. The Groups are:

• Warrington Group: Warrington Bank Quay, Warrington Central
• Hunts Cross Group: Hunts Cross, Liverpool South Parkway

They are not contiguous. To get from any member of one group to any member of the other, a passenger must travel through several railway stations which are not in either group. Were you thinking that the freight only line via Fiddlers Ferry, which passes underneath Warrington Bank Quay station, provided a direct passenger route?

But even if you did find two contiguous sets of Group Stations, the definition on page A6 of the National Routeing Guide seems clear to me that the concession applies within one Group, not between Groups. All four uses of the word 'group' are singular.

GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

 

[b0b]

But even if you did find two contiguous sets of Group Stations, the definition on page A6 of the National Routeing Guide seems clear to me that the concession applies within one Group, not between Groups. All four uses of the word 'group' are singular.

I'm trying to figure out an algorithm to calculate mapped routes and I was trying to resolve whether there was a way to decide whether you can double back through a group, without using the National Railway Timetable to see if there are intermediate stations.

I think I do; but the concession that you can only do it within the same group may well help narrow down potential routes.

But I don't think it solves my original query in that without consulting some other piece of information, I can't decide whether you can go via the Hunts Cross group between Shotton and Bolton.

So the question is, can you tell from the NRG Maps alone whether that is valid, or do you need to consult, for example a timetable, to see whether the detour via Hunts Cross group is valid or not....

 

[MichaelAMW]

Hello All,

Just to requote...

"GROUP STATIONS
Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group."

Does anyone really understand why the double-back benefit of a group station is not allowed in the case of a journey starting or finishing at a station in that group? I happen to be at Beeston, so doubling back via next-door Nottingham can be useful at times. There are many other examples, of course, where a 'local' station lies between a 'main' station and a nearby junction. As it happens, all of the online methods of ticket purchase allow you to book tickets that double back vi Nottingham, but that doesn't really answer the question.

Any ideas, anyone?

Cheers,
Michael.

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone really understand why the double-back benefit of a group station is not allowed in the case of a journey starting or finishing at a station in that group? I happen to be at Beeston, so doubling back via next-door Nottingham can be useful at times. There are many other examples, of course, where a 'local' station lies between a 'main' station and a nearby junction. As it happens, all of the online methods of ticket purchase allow you to book tickets that double back vi Nottingham, but that doesn't really answer the question.

Any ideas, anyone?.

Simple: Because it would undercut the fares!

If there is a need for an easement for a particular journey, put in a request to ATOC.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There are three different types of groups; routeing point groups for routeing, station groups for ticketing (eg. Birmingham Stns, London Terminals) and station groups for doubling back (the rule you have quoted).

Routeing points are not groups, however station groups (NRG) may be routeing points.

For example, Bath Spa is a routeing point, but it is not a group or part of a station group. Manchester Piccadilly is not a routeing point, it is part of a station group and that group is a routeing point.

 

[Mojo]

Routeing points are not groups, however station groups (NRG) may be routeing points.

I never said they were, merely trying to avoid confusion between the different types of groups, stating that some routeing points can be called groups (eg. Hellifield Group) as opposed to just station names (eg. Oxford). Similarly, some can be Group Routeing Point members (eg. Hamilton Square for Liverpool Group), or, depending on the fares check rule be have a number of associated locations (eg. Bow Brickhill can either be Bedford or Bletchley Group).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When I said there were 3 group types, I was corrected on here and told there were only 2 group types, with the Routeing Point Groups being the same as groups within which you can double back. Is this not the case after all?

It is, but I'm trying to avoid confusion between say Montpelier, which has Bristol Group as its only routeing point, and Filton Abbey Wood which is a member of the Bristol Group routeing point. Therefore I'd always take this to be the definitive, easy to use guide to stations you can doubleback through, although of course the pink pages should be no different.

 

[John @ home]

I'd always take this to be the definitive, easy to use guide to stations you can doubleback through,

Not always. The February 2010 version of that document is attached. Using that version, a £2.40 SDS Yarm - Stockton was valid via Aberdeen, Darlington, Dundee, Falkirk, Newcastle, Stirling and York because they were all shown as members of Middlesbrough Group.

 

[Mojo]

Not always. The February 2010 version of that document is attached. Using that version, a £2.40 SDS Yarm - Stockton was valid via Aberdeen, Darlington, Dundee, Falkirk, Newcastle, Stirling and York because they were all shown as members of Middlesbrough Group.

That is now out of date, and the current list is probably the easiest one to follow than searching through stations in the pink pages that you may think you need to double back through.

Infact I'm pretty sure everything they put in that was wrong (and it even managed to survive an update to the routeing guide). I've no idea how it even came to exist!

 

[reb0118]

I must be bored but here goes:-

1) Is Dalmeny a member of Edinburgh Group? And -

2) - if so, remembering it is possible to double back between Group Stations in an intermediate Routing point, is it -

3) - therefore possible on a eg through Newcastle to Glasgow journey to alight at Edinbugh and then make a return trip to Dalmeny before continuing on to Glasgow at a later point with a Newcastle to Glasgow ticket?

 

[MikeWh]

1) Yes. Edinburgh group contains:
DALMENY
EDINBURGH
HAYMARKET
SOUTH GYLE
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
2,3) are you allowed to treble back through Haymarket?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . is it -

3) - therefore possible on a eg through Newcastle to Glasgow journey to alight at Edinbugh and then make a return trip to Dalmeny before continuing on to Glasgow at a later point with a Newcastle to Glasgow ticket?

I've been puzzling about this myself for sometime.
I'm sorry that I can't provide a reliable answer, but I'd be very interested to know!

. . . are you allowed to treble back through Haymarket?

but it COULD be done by changing at Haymarket on the Glasgow leg (ie. (a) Newcastle-Haymarket. (b) Haymarket-Dalmeny. (c) Dalmeny-Haymarket. (d) Haymarket-Glasgow(GLC or GLQ).) So that's only doubling back, isn't it?.
[the change of train between (a) and (b) could be made at Waverley, but that still pases through Haymarket and makes no difference to the question).

. . . This extended availability is for interchange purposes only . . .

suggests that this is not permitted.

 

[John @ home]

are you allowed to treble back through Haymarket?

'Doubling back' is defined by the Routeing Guide as passing through the same station twice on a single journey (pages A2, A5 and F4). I cannot find any statements which either permit or prohibit passing through the same station more than twice on a single journey.

There is no doubt that a Newcastle - Glasgow route Any Permitted ticket allows:

• Newcastle - Edinburgh - Haymarket - Dalmeny - Haymarket - (various routes to) Glasgow Central or Glasgow Queen Street, or
• Newcastle - Edinburgh - Haymarket - Dalmeny - Linlithgow (avoiding Haymarket) - Glasgow Queen Street.

The question is whether it also allows:

• Newcastle - Edinburgh - Haymarket - Dalmeny - Haymarket - Edinburgh - Haymarket - (various routes to) Glasgow Central or Glasgow Queen Street.

I don't know.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The question is whether it also allows:

• Newcastle - Edinburgh - Haymarket - Dalmeny - Haymarket - Edinburgh - Haymarket - (various routes to) Glasgow Central or Glasgow Queen Street.

Quite so.
I don't know either, but will guess that the answer COULD be in the negative, relying on :-

. . . This extended availability is for interchange purposes only . . .

unless we are invoking the "interchange purposes", which the Dalmey excursion is not.

However, this journey must surely be construed to permit (you didn't spell out this subtlle variation, John @ home):-
Newcastle - Edinburgh Waverley : Edinburgh Waverley (via Haymarket) - Dalmeny : - Dalmeny - Haymarket : Haymarket - (various routes to) Glasgow Central or Glasgow Queen Street.
The distinction with this journey being that the interchanges take place at points further along the route (and not at the same place twice). Which I'm guessing IS valid.

 

[yorkie]

I don't see how it can possibly be valid to pass through the same station more than twice on the same journey (unless this was somehow made essential due to engineering works, but even that seems unlikely). Also the "for interchange purposes" is probably basically their way of saying you can't break your journey while on the 'doubling back' section.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I don't see how it can possibly be valid to pass through the same station more than twice on the same journey . . . .

So are you, therefore, agreeing that this route (below) WOULD be valid? -

Newcastle - Edinburgh Waverley [interchange and recreational pause]
Edinburgh Waverley (via Haymarket, stopping but not alighting) - Dalmeny [interchange and recreational pause]
Dalmeny - Haymarket [interchange (nothing recreational at Haymaret IMHO)]
Haymarket - (various routes to) Glasgow Central or Glasgow Queen Street.

?

 

[John @ home]

I'm sorry that I can't provide a reliable answer, ...

. . . This extended availability is for interchange purposes only . . .

suggests that this is not permitted.

I don't think a definitive answer can be obtained by reading this phrase on its own. The full description of Group Stations is

Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

The reference to interchange purposes only, in my opinion, adds no additional burden for the passenger doubling back within an intermediate Group. If a passenger travelling on a ticket valid for break of journey decides to stop for a meal at an Edinburgh Group station, and prefers a restaurant close to Dalmeny rather than one close to Edinburgh (Waverley), then in my opinion the words on Group stations gives the passenger the right to travel via Dalmeny.

In post #26 I said I didn't know whether it could be permitted to travel through a station more than twice. While stressing heavily that we're all giving opinions and that it's unlikely that we'll ever get a definite ruling, I'm now moving to the view that it probably has to be permitted. Let's continue my scenario ...

When the passenger finishes their meal they may resume their journey. From Dalmeny most (but not quite all) valid journey opportunities involve doubling back within Edinburgh Group at least as far as Haymarket. It would usually be most convenient to change at Haymarket, because most (but not quite all) Edinburgh (Waverley) - Glasgow trains call at Haymarket. But at some times it would be better to change at Edinburgh (Waverley) for Glasgow Central to catch a fast train which does not stop at Haymarket. And if the passenger has difficulty with stairs, it is always necessary to change at Edinburgh (Waverley) because the lifts have not yet been installed or commissioned at Haymarket.

If the passenger doubles back as far as Edinburgh (Waverley), they may or may not pass through Haymarket more than twice because most (but not quite all) Edinburgh (Waverley) - Glasgow trains which do not call at Haymarket pass through that station. A few go via Portobello instead. As far as I can ascertain, the information on which route a particular train will take between adjacent station stops on a particular day is not in the public domain.

When the first Routeing Guide was published in 1996, the Rail Regulator wrote in this press release that I am satisfied that the Guide ... will guarantee for the passenger the reasonable routes currently used. I can't believe that the Rail Regulator's current successor for routeing matters, the Secretary of State, would decide that the validity of travelling through a particular sequence of station stops would depend on the precise route travelled for route learning purposes between one station stop and the next, where that route is not made available to the public. For that reason, I have come to the view that it can be permitted to pass through a particular station more than twice on a Permitted Route for a particular journey.

the "for interchange purposes" is probably basically their way of saying you can't break your journey while on the 'doubling back' section.

I don't think so. The only Permitted Route for a South Milford - Church Fenton journey is via Leeds Group. I can see nothing in the Guide which would indicate that break of this journey would be permitted at Micklefield, where doubling back is avoided but there are few facilities in and around the station, but not at the other members of the Group where facilities are greater.

In the Newcastle - Glasgow via Dalmeny example, travel between Newcastle and Dalmeny does not involve doubling back. If resuming this journey after a break at Dalmeny, there is a permitted route to Glasgow Queen Street which does not involve doubling back, but has a service of only 5 trains a week (M-F: 07:14 Kirkcaldy - 07:42 Dalmeny 07:42 - Glasgow Queen Street 08:47). At other times, doubling back is needed to complete the journey, but this is caused by the level of train service provision.