Dorking lines alteration

[nw1]

There have been various threads on revising services in the Dorking area in recent years particularly due to Dorking having a very slow service to London.

I'm wondering whether, particularly in a GBR setup, it would make sense for "Southern" to pull out of Dorking altogether and leave the line to "South Western", as that is the faster line in any case - and introducing (or re-introducing, I think they existed in the late 90s) more limited-stop Waterloo-Dorking services.

So you could have a Waterloo-Epsom pattern of something like:
2tph all stations to Guildford via Epsom
1tph Clapham, Wimbledon, fast to Worcester Park then all to Epsom, Leatherhead, Dorking and all to Horsham
1tph as above but calls at Boxhill and terminates at Dorking

Then "Southern" could be recast as a 15-min-interval all-stations metro service from Victoria-Epsom via Mitcham Junction and Sutton.

The calling pattern ensures all stations up-line from Epsom in both directions have at least 4tph.

Would this work under a GBR setup, I wonder?

 

[devon_belle]

Interesting idea, I think I've seen similar notions in other threads on the line. Journey times from Horsham/Dorking into Victoria are atrocious.

I think your 4 tph north of Epsom would fit, although pathing semi-fasts on the slows east of Raynes Park may be quite challenging.

You propose some frequency cuts which may not be popular. Dorking from 3 tph (4 pre-covid) to 2 tph. Boxhill from 2 to 1. Ashtead from 4 (6 pre-covid) to 3. Losing the easy link from Boxhill to Horsham etc may harm Surrey walkers' plans. Holmwood*, Ockley, and Warnham are presumably quite happy to get a significantly faster service (hopefully one on a Sunday too!) to London than today, as are the stations west of Leatherhead to have their 2 tph restored. Epsom to Victoria would certainly be happy with 4 tph up from 2. I daresay Sutton and Carshalton may benefit from one of those trains skipping the other stations (not Clapham Jnc), to improve journey times, especially in peak times.

If Crossrail 2 comes to pass, how does that affect your proposal?

*Services to Victoria have gone from 47 mins to 75 mins in the last ~30 years. Waterloo to Holmwood/Horsham has existed in the past, and could become a possibility again with GBR. 701s are cleared that way, I believe.

 

[nw1]

Interesting idea, I think I've seen similar notions in other threads on the line. Journey times from Horsham/Dorking into Victoria are atrocious.

I think your 4 tph north of Epsom would fit, although pathing semi-fasts on the slows east of Raynes Park may be quite challenging.

You propose some frequency cuts which may not be popular. Dorking from 3 tph (4 pre-covid) to 2 tph. Boxhill from 2 to 1. Ashtead from 4 (6 pre-covid) to 3. Losing the easy link from Boxhill to Horsham etc may harm Surrey walkers' plans. Holmwood*, Ockley, and Warnham are presumably quite happy to get a significantly faster service (hopefully one on a Sunday too!) to London than today, as are the stations west of Leatherhead to have their 2 tph restored. Epsom to Victoria would certainly be happy with 4 tph up from 2. I daresay Sutton and Carshalton may benefit from one of those trains skipping the other stations (not Clapham Jnc), to improve journey times, especially in peak times.

If Crossrail 2 comes to pass, how does that affect your proposal?

*Services to Victoria have gone from 47 mins to 75 mins in the last ~30 years. Waterloo to Holmwood/Horsham has existed in the past, and could become a possibility again with GBR. 701s are cleared that way, I believe.

Re service cuts to Dorking it was my assumption, perhaps incorrect, that the 4tph pre-Covid was irregularly spaced, with no attempt to combine the Southern and SWT services to provide a 15-min interval. I may be wrong though.

I don't live there but I've visited a couple of times - I'd guess that a 2tph fastish service would probably be more useful to Dorking than a 3-4tph slow service, but I may be wrong.

Re the Boxhill links with the south - good point, though Boxhill seems a small place and doesn't look like it needs more than 1tph, basically it reminds me a bit of an Amberley of the North Downs. However it did occur to me that 2tph south from Dorking, to make better connections between the Mole Valley area and the south coast, could make sense, thus how about extending both services to Horsham? (The one stopping at Boxhill going fast to Horsham, perhaps?)

Ashtead doesn't seem big enough to warrant 4tph to London, never mind 6tph but could be wrong; remember that the much larger Esher on the SWML only has 2tph.

Re Crossrail 2 I'm a bit sceptical of that happening but presumably it would allow more paths on the slow lines to allow faster services to run. The slow lines looked pretty busy in 1982 in the peak and they still managed to run services which only called at Clapham and Wimbledon, slotted into an intensive all-stations service.

Re running fast Carshalton to Clapham, I guess that depends on whether there is demand for 4tph from the intermediate stations.

Contentiously could you even run the Dorking/Horsham services with any spare 450s that might exist, as they are the typical stock for services of that length and stopping pattern; for historical reasons presumably the line has always used suburban stock whereas it has always seemed to me like it ought to be a typical VEP, and latterly 450, service. Don't know if they're cleared that way, though.

 

[al78]

Interesting idea, I think I've seen similar notions in other threads on the line. Journey times from Horsham/Dorking into Victoria are atrocious.

Are Horsham to Victoria services that bad? About an hour to do roughly 45 miles, a bit less with the fastest services. The slowest part is once through the North Downs into the Greater London urban areas where the speed seems to be restricted. I'm guessing line speed is limited to no more than 40 mph from Coulsdon northward?

 

[devon_belle]

Are Horsham to Victoria services that bad? About an hour to do roughly 45 miles, a bit less with the fastest services. The slowest part is once through the North Downs into the Greater London urban areas where the speed seems to be restricted. I'm guessing line speed is limited to no more than 40 mph from Coulsdon northward?

91 minutes to do 35m67ch is just over 23 mph average. We are, of course, talking about the Mole Valley route via Dorking.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2024 ==

Re service cuts to Dorking it was my assumption, perhaps incorrect, that the 4tph pre-Covid was irregularly spaced, with no attempt to combine the Southern and SWT services to provide a 15-min interval. I may be wrong though.

I don't live there but I've visited a couple of times - I'd guess that a 2tph fastish service would probably be more useful to Dorking than a 3-4tph slow service, but I may be wrong.

I'm not sure on the pre-covid details either. Hopefully someone can fill us in.

Southern is currently 2 tph to Victoria, then SWR's 1 tph to Waterloo is close to one of the Southerns. I definitely think more people use the Waterloo service (judging by who gets on at Ashtead and Leatherhead too, in my experience), so 2 tph faster may be more desirable.

Re the Boxhill links with the south - good point, though Boxhill seems a small place and doesn't look like it needs more than 1tph, basically it reminds me a bit of an Amberley of the North Downs. However it did occur to me that 2tph south from Dorking, to make better connections between the Mole Valley area and the south coast, could make sense, thus how about extending both services to Horsham? (The one stopping at Boxhill going fast to Horsham, perhaps?)

Someone pointed out to me that connectivity is the reason that the Southern to Horsham stops at Ewell East and Boxhill, whereas the Dorking terminator does not. I would be for both services going down to Horsham – Platform 1 there is only used for this line and there should be no trouble turning around two trains per hour. The signal blocks are very long between Dorking and Horsham, so the services would probably have to be 15 or more minutes apart.

Ashtead doesn't seem big enough to warrant 4tph to London, never mind 6tph but could be wrong; remember that the much larger Esher on the SWML only has 2tph.

Agree that Ashtead doesn't need an intense off-peak service. Some skip-stopping may please the locals with regards to the level crossing!

Re running fast Carshalton to Clapham, I guess that depends on whether there is demand for 4tph from the intermediate stations.

Hackbridge, Mitcham Junction, and Mitcham Eastfields are certainly busy, especially in the peaks in my experience. Off-peak many (most?) passengers want Thameslink. However I think there is merit to providing the large commuting areas of Sutton and Carshalton with a faster service to London Victoria, especially if it skips Balham. Formerly the fastest Sutton-London was something like 25 minutes. Now it is closer to 40 iirc.

Contentiously could you even run the Dorking/Horsham services with any spare 450s that might exist, as they are the typical stock for services of that length and stopping pattern; for historical reasons presumably the line has always used suburban stock whereas it has always seemed to me like it ought to be a typical VEP, and latterly 450, service. Don't know if they're cleared that way, though.

450s are cleared according to the Sectional Appendix. I'm not sure whether the service would be more suited to 701s though. If a 10 car metro service is desired, keeping the 377/6s and 701s on the route would probably be preferable. However, I always try and catch the 377/1 or 377/4 booked services, for a much better journey considering the duration.

Thanks for starting this thread, it's an interesting discussion.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

If the Streatham Common interchange was built, I wonder if we could abolish Victoria services entirely, and run anything through Mitcham onto Thameslink.

South of Sutton, I wonder if a new London Bridge to Horsham service, running non-stop from Croydon to Sutton, would work.

 

[nw1]

Someone pointed out to me that connectivity is the reason that the Southern to Horsham stops at Ewell East and Boxhill, whereas the Dorking terminator does not.

Interesting - in my head I always think the longer-distance services should stop less closer to London (i.e. the Horsham in this case) to speed-up timings from the more outer stations. But I guess Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham are pretty quiet stations. I've used Ockley myself a couple of times - it's quiet, but a more charming station in Surrey it's probably not possible to find. This was in 2014, in the days when the services were limited-stop north of Sutton.

I would be for both services going down to Horsham – Platform 1 there is only used for this line and there should be no trouble turning around two trains per hour. The signal blocks are very long between Dorking and Horsham, so the services would probably have to be 15 or more minutes apart.

They would be more or less on the opposite half-hour so I guess that would not be a problem.

450s are cleared according to the Sectional Appendix. I'm not sure whether the service would be more suited to 701s though. If a 10 car metro service is desired, keeping the 377/6s and 701s on the route would probably be preferable. However, I always try and catch the 377/1 or 377/4 booked services, for a much better journey considering the duration.

I was thinking that it's very much a "country" service, going well out of London, thus something like 450s might be the best choice.

Actually I do wonder why, when the Bognor services were diverted to Gatwick back in 1978, they (BR) didn't introduce a faster Victoria-Dorking-(Horsham) service with the now-spare paths. By 1982, Dorking's service from Victoria was much as now, all stations except Battersea Park and Wandsworth Common. Waterloo very similarly skipped only Vauxhall and Earlsfield. So it's definitely been a feature of Dorking's service over many years to have only stoppers into London, though for a good while the faster limited-stop Victoria services sped things up a little. Dorking did keep a few fast Bognor services in the peak into the 80s though I think all faster services had gone by the mid-80s.

Thanks for starting this thread, it's an interesting discussion.

No worries!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Dec 2024 ==

South of Sutton, I wonder if a new London Bridge to Horsham service, running non-stop from Croydon to Sutton, would work.

How would journey times from London Bridge to Sutton on such a pattern compare to Victoria/Sutton, out of interest?

 

[PGAT]

If the Streatham Common interchange was built, I wonder if we could abolish Victoria services entirely, and run anything through Mitcham onto Thameslink.

South of Sutton, I wonder if a new London Bridge to Horsham service, running non-stop from Croydon to Sutton, would work.

Non-stop from West Croydon to Sutton doesn’t really work in the timetable when you consider it has to tiptoe around the Overground and other stopping services.

 

[nw1]

Non-stop from West Croydon to Sutton doesn’t really work in the timetable when you consider it has to tiptoe around the Overground and other stopping services.

Are there paths on the fast lines from London Bridge to Norwood Junction?

Isn't there an off-peak London Bridge to Epsom which is fast to Norwood? Could that lose stops beyond West Croydon (with other services taking over the stops) and extend to Dorking/Horsham?

 

[PGAT]

Are there paths on the fast lines from London Bridge to Norwood Junction?

Isn't there an off-peak London Bridge to Epsom which is fast to Norwood? Could that lose stops beyond West Croydon (with other services taking over the stops) and extend to Dorking/Horsham?

It could easily extend beyond Epsom if rolling stock permits as it used to before 2020, but it can’t really skip stops between West Croydon and Sutton. The current timetable arrangement allows for an evenly spaced 4tph between Sutton and Epsom which would be broken if you sped the services up. You also run into the issue of it catching up with the Victoria service (which it currently runs 5 mins behind in the up direction) and breaking links to London Bridge which are very well used.

 

[Magdalia]

There have been various threads on revising services in the Dorking area in recent years particularly due to Dorking having a very slow service to London.

I travel between the Fens and the Epsom/Dorking area quite a lot.

The off peak service changed considerably after covid. Previously to/from Waterloo there were 2tph to each of Dorking and Guildford. Also there were fasts from Victoria at xx25/xx55 running non-stop Clapham Junction-Carshalton. These were the trains that ran through to Dorking or Horsham. There used to be good connections in and out of these with the Thameslink trains at Sutton. I think there were also Victoria-Epsom via Carshalton stoppers but my memory may not be right there.

Post covid I had to change my strategy to going through to London Bridge on Thameslink then using the London Bridge-Epsom service, which I think was new? This is fast as far as Norwood Junction and on the fast lines, but usually means changing twice to get beyond Epsom. The connections at Sutton off Thameslink going south were screwed, though they still work going north.

But I thought that I should rely on data not anecdote, so I have looked up the figures here https://railalefan.co.uk/labs/flowstats/:

The Waterloo/Victoria numbers (thousands) for selected stations are:

Epsom 200/158 (also 79 London Bridge)
Ashtead 143/66
Leatherhead 163/74
Boxhill 16/8
Dorking 101/98 (also 8 London Bridge)

Furthermore to Thameslink core stations Epsom has about 11K, Dorking 8k and Ashtead/Leatherhead 6k each.

I guess Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham are pretty quiet stations.

You're right. The figures are tiny, and with about half of all journeys to/from Victoria.

Before looking at the numbers my solution would be to run 2tph Waterloo-Guildford and not go Waterloo-Dorking except in the peaks. but the numbers suggest that Dorking is going to continue to need to have trains to/from both Waterloo and Victoria.

This is partly self-interest but what I want to see in any proposed changes is better connectivity with Thameslink! There are already some flows to/from the Thameslink core despite the rubbish connectivity. One option here is to feed the London Bridge-Epsom service from/to Thameslink (replacing the Rainhams?), even better would be for those trains to go on to/from Dorking.

 

[nw1]

The 1996 timetable is interesting (on Timetable World https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=fa1cdb26-ac18-4c07-9f5a-4a63be92df14, table 53) because it shows a Waterloo-Dorking journey time, off peak, of 37 mins every hour (service continues to Horsham). This service has come up on previous threads IIRC.
The calling pattern is slightly different to that suggested above as it calls additionally at Vauxhall (not necessarily a bad thing) and Ashtead, but runs fast Wimbledon to Epsom. Perhaps something like that could be considered.

The issue with this pattern is that the intermediate stations between Wimbledon and Epsom probably need 4tph, being within the London urban area, so you'd need to run 6tph from Wimbledon to Epsom. In fact the 1996 peak hour timetable does send 6tph down to Epsom from Wimbledon, some of which skip some intermediate stations, so presumably in theory a 6tph Wimbledon to Epsom, 4tph all stops and 2tph limited-stop, could be done.

Meanwhile this old post is intriguing:

Horsham to London via Dorking

Have there ever been trains from horsham bound for london via crawley and gatwick re-routed via dorking? Would there be demand for a portsmouth/south coast to dorking/leatherhead/epsom/sutton direct service? I am not sure if it is a doo route think it is beyond dorking

www.railforums.co.uk

Suggests CIGs and VEPs running non-stop through Stoneleigh and Ewell West around midday in fine weather conditions in spring 1979 (day of week not given though it's suggested it was weekday during May half-term) with headcodes 15 (Horsham) or 16 (Effingham/Guildford). All the timetables and CWNs of that kind of era I've seen feature all trains stopping at these two stations, and operated with suburban stock. I take it there wasn't a short-lived and experimental fast service on the line operated by mainline stock in 1979, maybe between the peaks when spare stock was available? Perhaps something similar to the 1996 service above, but operated with mainline stock?

(Windsor had CIGs and VEPs off-peak in the early 80s, though with a normal stopping pattern - so it's conceivable it could have been policy at that time to operate faster suburbans with mainline stock off-peak to attract punters).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Where there any plans by the LBSCR to four track the line from Balham to Dorking?

 

[sbf kent]

I was born and grew up in Dorking and in the early 2000's commuted from the town. There is no doubt the town has suffered from a poor train service - say in relation to Reigate. Dorking now has no high street banks. A recasting of the services altogether would seem like the best option. I suspect there will be considerable new housing between Capel and the Sussex Coast in the next ten years and a faster route to Waterloo would offer a good alternative to the 14 stops (I think) to Victoria from Dorking. Waterloo for servicing an expending City of London via the Drain. I agree going beyond Dorking to Arundel or Littlehampton would create new journey opportunities. A Dorking to London 45 minute journey time (one hour to Horsham) would bring it back to being comparable other similar distance towns in Surrey and Kent, with rolling stock offering 2 by 2 seating. I remember when the Bognor Regis service was diverted to go via Gatwick and not replaced, now if the time to correct that.

 

[devon_belle]

I have had the displeasure of commuting along the line into Victoria since the Southern timetable reductions. In one instance the train arrived 15 mins late and we caught up all that time without skipping any stations or appreciable extra acceleration/braking force.

Dorking definitely deserves a faster service into Waterloo (and Victoria). If sufficient trains can be spun at Epsom then 4 tph along the Wimbledon-Epsom section would be ideal. I would be for extending the new semi-fast Dorking train to Horsham as well. It would be nice if the stoppers from Horsham-Dorking would get a faster service into London, even if they remain on the Victoria train. There is significant housing growth planned along that route and the A24 can be very busy. Longer-term, going down the Arun Valley and beyond would be useful. Paths on the Coastway end may be problematic though.

In times of diversions, Victoria to Horsham via Dorking is timed for about 45 minutes. Stoppers inevitably get in the way, but this timing would be competitive with the route via Gatwick. There would also be the benefit of not filling up with Gatwick passengers and their suitcases. The Mole Valley lines are definitely under utilised.

Where there any plans by the LBSCR to four track the line from Balham to Dorking?

Not aware of any, but there may have been. I think I've seen Epsom to Leatherhead mentioned somewhere, and obviously there were four tracks from outside Sutton to Cheam until the late 70s. As you probably know, the Southern planned to build a new line from Chessington to Leatherhead to help with congestion on this route.

 

[LLivery]

4tph seems pretty reasonable for Ashtead to me. It's bigger than Chorleywood with 6tph.

I haven't thought deeply into whether it's easy, but if you could get batteries on some 377s, I'd consider extending the Southern Reigate service to Guildford. Could get Dorking Deep down to 50 mins from Victoria. If diverted back to London Bridge, it could be what, 45 mins? give or take...

 

[30907]

Dorking definitely deserves a faster service into Waterloo (and Victoria). If sufficient trains can be spun at Epsom then 4 tph along the Wimbledon-Epsom section would be ideal. I would be for extending the new semi-fast Dorking train to Horsham as well. It would be nice if the stoppers from Horsham-Dorking would get a faster service into London, even if they remain on the Victoria train.

Realistically, you are not going to get better than the 1996 service referenced earlier. Leatherhead and Ashtead are in the same ballpark for London passenger numbers as Dorking so can't be skipped, and Cheam isn't far behind.

There is significant housing growth planned along that route and the A24 can be very busy. Longer-term, going down the Arun Valley and beyond would be useful. Paths on the Coastway end may be problematic though.

I fear it would be difficult to justify any extra trains beyond Horsham in he foreseeable future.

 

[Meerkat]

If there were more units added to the hoped for order of BEMUs for Uckfield services (plus power upgrades) would a BEMU extension of the Southern Reigate services be a faster London route for Dorking? Also giving a direct train to Croydon.
Though I assume Reigate LC would have a melt down!

 

[PGAT]

If there were more units added to the hoped for order of BEMUs for Uckfield services (plus power upgrades) would a BEMU extension of the Southern Reigate services be a faster London route for Dorking? Also giving a direct train to Croydon.
Though I assume Reigate LC would have a melt down!

I reckon it could be quicker by a solid margin. Under such a hypothetical extension to Guildford, there would be no need to attach/split trains at Redhill which could save extra dwell time

 

[devon_belle]

Realistically, you are not going to get better than the 1996 service referenced earlier. Leatherhead and Ashtead are in the same ballpark for London passenger numbers as Dorking so can't be skipped, and Cheam isn't far behind.

I wouldn't turn my nose up at it! With modern acceleration having fewer skips shouldn't be an issue anyway. It feels like the 377s are not able to stretch their legs as it is.

 

[nw1]

I reckon it could be quicker by a solid margin. Under such a hypothetical extension to Guildford, there would be no need to attach/split trains at Redhill which could save extra dwell time

Could also be quite flexible in that interworking the two routes (Uckfield and the above) could be done if that was the most efficient thing to do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Dec 2024 ==

Realistically, you are not going to get better than the 1996 service referenced earlier. Leatherhead and Ashtead are in the same ballpark for London passenger numbers as Dorking so can't be skipped, and Cheam isn't far behind.7

The 1996 service was significantly quicker as discussed. I wonder whether you could get 6tph from Wimbledon to Epsom as was done in the 1996 peak, with 2tph skipping most stations?

I fear it would be difficult to justify any extra trains beyond Horsham in he foreseeable future.

That shouldn't matter to be fair. Provide a half hourly Dorking to Horsham (ex-London) with reasonable connections south and you don't need the through trains, arguably.