Doors opening on both sides

[Tibbs]

Couldn't figure out whether this should go into the trains section or stations section, so I thought what the hell and put it here!

Sometimes, when I get the train to work, the train pulls into platform 17 at Euston. For those that don't know, platform 17 sits on its own, with platform on both sides. You can see a picture here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/woolner/5096973000/

As you can see the right hand side is blocked off by a gate, which could be opened. Given that the trains are often packed, why do they not open the doors on both sides to allow people off the train quicker? Is there a safety feature on trains that only allow them to open one side at once (which would make sense) or are there places where they do open both sides?

Further to this, are there places where people board on one side and alight from another? This always struck me as sensible on the lifts on the Underground, and I wonder why they don't do this on especially busy interchanges (e.g. Oxford Circus). I guess cost?

 

[telstarbox]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_solution

Canary Wharf DLR is the most well-known example.

Generally the doors open on the 'exit' side first so that alighting passengers start to move that way, then when the 'entry' doors open there is already space for boarding passengers to move into.

There isn't any need for it at terminating platforms because the train has to reverse anyway, so there isn't much of a time saving.

 

[Mojo]

Terminating Eastbound trains using the middle platform at Arnos Grove open on the left, then on the other side for departure.

Terminating Westbound trains using the middle platform at White City open on the right, then on the other side for departure.

Other than the two examples above, the only instance I can think of where people alight on one side and board on the other is the DLR at Tower Gateway.

Westbound Central line trains open on both sides at Stratford.

On one platform, District line trains open on both sides at Barking.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_solution

Canary Wharf DLR is the most well-known example.

Generally the doors open on the 'exit' side first so that alighting passengers start to move that way, then when the 'entry' doors open there is already space for boarding passengers to move into.

There isn't any need for it at terminating platforms because the train has to reverse anyway, so there isn't much of a time saving.

That isn't quite what happens at Canary Wharf as customers can board or alight on either side.

 

[Yew]

At Worksop, once a day the Nottingham train opens the left doors onto platform two to unload then moves to P1, and opens up the right hand doors to load.

Not quite what you suggested, But both sets of doors are used.

 

[A-driver]

The problem isn't opening the doors both sides, its closing then again.

Both finsbury park and noorwood junction have a line with a platform both sides (down slow at finsbury and up slow at noorwood).

Problem is that when you press a doors close button on a train it closes all doors and its not possible to check both sides of the train at once to safely close the doors. Therefore they restrict it to one side only.

 

[D365]

The problem isn't opening the doors both sides, its closing then again.

Both finsbury park and noorwood junction have a line with a platform both sides (down slow at finsbury and up slow at noorwood).

Problem is that when you press a doors close button on a train it closes all doors and its not possible to check both sides of the train at once to safely close the doors. Therefore they restrict it to one side only.

In the three Spanish-style Munich S-Bahn stations (Hauptbahnhof lower level, Karlsplatz and Marienplatz), guards operate in an office at the centre of each station, typically monitoring the 'entry' doors facing left/centre on each train so that the driver monitors the 'exit' doors facing right/outwards - 3 doors per carriage side, the 423s (typically DOO and LZB/ATO in the core) are formed of 4 carriages in formations of up to 3 units so that's 72 doors per train to monitor. Whilst maintaining 30tph in each direction!

At the 'traditional' two track/platform 'core' stations, which are not as busy, station guards are employed at peak times. How will Thameslink and the Crossrail lines manage - potentially to increase to 32tph on the latter!

 

[A-driver]

In the three Spanish-style Munich S-Bahn stations (Hauptbahnhof lower level, Karlsplatz and Marienplatz), guards operate in an office at the centre of each station, typically monitoring the 'entry' doors facing left/centre on each train so that the driver monitors the 'exit' doors facing right/outwards - 3 doors per carriage side, the 423s (typically DOO and LZB/ATO in the core) are formed of 4 carriages in formations of up to 3 units so that's 72 doors per train to monitor. Whilst maintaining 30tph in each direction!

At the 'traditional' two track/platform 'core' stations, which are not as busy, station guards are employed at peak times. How will Thameslink and the Crossrail lines manage - potentially to increase to 32tph on the latter!

I don't think that any of the double platformed stations in this country are busy enough to warrant all that extra money spent on upgrading dispatch equipment, modifying trains and increasing staff.

 

[Mojo]

On the Underground stocks that open on both sides the door controls work independently of each other so the Train Operator can monitor the platform-train interface at different times as the doors close.

With regards to Crossrail my understanding of the current plan is that busiest Crossrail platforms will be staffed for parts of the day with staff performing a dwell time/platform management type role (similar to that performed on the Underground with Sats) rather than full on train dispatch.

 

[D365]

I don't think that any of the double platformed stations in this country are busy enough to warrant all that extra money spent on upgrading dispatch equipment, modifying trains and increasing staff.

Thameslink and the Crossrail(s) will be needing and using 'platform guards' when their high-frequency services begin; thanks for the contribution Mojo.

 

[Tibbs]

The problem isn't opening the doors both sides, its closing then again.

Both finsbury park and noorwood junction have a line with a platform both sides (down slow at finsbury and up slow at noorwood).

Problem is that when you press a doors close button on a train it closes all doors and its not possible to check both sides of the train at once to safely close the doors. Therefore they restrict it to one side only.

Oh, that's interesting, I knew there'd be a safety angle somewhere.

They could do with opening on both sides and segregate one side each to:

• The I'm so important I MUST push past everyone (RAAR RAAR RAAR) people and aggressive Brompton Bike Riders
• Normal People

I'm happy being unimportant and not rushing. My day is so much nicer now I don't get on the front 4 carriages!

 

[tsr]

There was another thread recently about stations with platforms on both sides of trains, so to speak. I don't know where it is, but I think it was on the Infrastructure forum.

Guildford is another example on the NR network. I seem to remember there are quite a few.

One of the major problems with opening doors on both sides is the conductor rail (if there is one). Any gap between the train and the platform which is large enough to fall down could result in an accident where the victim doesn't just sustain trauma from a fall, but also gets electrocuted. Hence conductor rail guards (not foolproof, but better than nothing) at applicable locations. There are a number of nasty stories about electrocution via the legs from 750DC conductor rails - it's not exactly something to be taken lightly, as the vast majority of members on here will know.

Morden is an interesting example of another terminus where doors may be open on both sides, depending on the platforms used. You can actually walk across part of the station by walking through trains rather than using conventional methods such as - y'know - stairs!

 

[Techniquest]

It happens happily enough at Gare du Midi, Brussels on tram line 3/4, doors open both sides and close both sides in passenger service. Incredibly useful as it's a very busy stop regardless of the time of day.

Only place that immediately comes to mind of it happening, definitely not seen it in the UK.

 

[D365]

There was another thread recently about stations with platforms on both sides of trains, so to speak. I don't know where it is, but I think it was on the Infrastructure forum.

Guildford is another example on the NR network. I seem to remember there are quite a few.

One of the major problems with opening doors on both sides is the conductor rail (if there is one). Any gap between the train and the platform which is large enough to fall down could result in an accident where the victim doesn't just sustain trauma from a fall, but also gets electrocuted. Hence conductor rail guards (not foolproof, but better than nothing) at applicable locations. There are a number of nasty stories about electrocution via the legs from 750DC conductor rails - it's not exactly something to be taken lightly, as the vast majority of members on here will know.

Morden is an interesting example of another terminus where doors may be open on both sides, depending on the platforms used. You can actually walk across part of the station by walking through trains rather than using conventional methods such as - y'know - stairs!

Yes there was such a thread. Why would there been any more chance of a passenger tripping up at the interface with both sides open?

 

[Birdbrain]

Interesting thread. Did it happen in BR days, for example Yeovil Pen Mill, Templecombe?

 

[tsr]

Yes there was such a thread. Why would there been any more chance of a passenger tripping up at the interface with both sides open?

There most likely isn't a higher risk, but the consequences of any such accident are more likely to be severe (as if falling onto the track isn't bad enough!).

Obviously, this only applies to areas where there are conductor rails, or if there is damaged signal cabling (this would present a slightly lesser but nonetheless possible hazard).

 

[A-driver]

Interesting thread. Did it happen in BR days, for example Yeovil Pen Mill, Templecombe?

In slam door days it certainly happened at places like noorwood as the was no way to stop it.

 

[D365]

There most likely isn't a higher risk, but the consequences of any such accident are more likely to be severe (as if falling onto the track isn't bad enough!).

Obviously, this only applies to areas where there are conductor rails, or if there is damaged signal cabling (this would present a slightly lesser but nonetheless possible hazard).

Rereading it makes sense now, as at a platform conductor rail will almost always be on the side opposite to the interface, so passengers will not embark across the conductor. If Spanish-style platforms did exist [in third-rail land] falling into the gap would be even more dangerous.

 

[tsr]

Rereading it makes sense now, as at a platform conductor rail will almost always be on the side opposite to the interface, so passengers will not embark across the conductor. If Spanish-style platforms did exist [in third-rail land] falling into the gap would be even more dangerous.

I'm glad it makes sense now. I do sometimes get a bit verbose and/or unclear!

Some of the locations mentioned so far do let passengers board over the conductor rail, but these are so few and far between that (statistically, at least) the risk is mitigated. It's not ideal, and I imagine further platforms would generally not be built in such a manner.

 

[Tibbs]

In slam door days it certainly happened at places like noorwood as the was no way to stop it.

I thought that as well - running with that a bit was there a common problem of people getting out of the wrong side of the train and falling on the tracks?

 

[A-driver]

I thought that as well - running with that a bit was there a common problem of people getting out of the wrong side of the train and falling on the tracks?

Not that I know of. Drivers were told the opposite they are today in that they were told to hit platforms very quickly and brake hard to stop people getting off of moving trains. When TPWS was installed approaching buffet stops it was common for the driver to see his passengers overtaking him as they ran into terminal platforms-the train would be empty by the time it stopped!

It does make me laugh when managers make such a big deal of stopping short and opening doors on the wrong side when not even 10 years ago on some networks they had slam doors with no door locking at all!

 

[sheff1]

Not quite the same thing, but until maybe 5/7 years ago trains coming into the two south facing bays at Sheffield could have the doors released on either side depending on the guard. Always good for a bet with your fellow travellers .

Now though the opening side has seemingly been standardised across all operators - certainly the platform signage has been changed.

 

[theageofthetra]

Weren't racecourse stations deliberately designed like this with a platform each side to allow maximum unboarding speed from the Victorian compartment stock with slam doors? Am sure the same existed at Crystal Palace high level and at Ally Pally on the northern heights line. ?

 

[bronzeonion]

Thameslink and the Crossrail(s) will be needing and using 'platform guards' when their high-frequency services begin; thanks for the contribution Mojo.

Would be good to have train guards too.

 

[Clip]

Other than the two examples above, the only instance I can think of where people alight on one side and board on the other is the DLR at Tower Gateway.

Yeah but no takes a blind bit of notice which side they are meant to

The problem isn't opening the doors both sides, its closing then again.

Shouldnt be too much effort, they manage it with one train captain on the DLR so maybe just an extra monitor on the other platform for DOO services and for guard services he goes and looks out of the other door once he has shut one. Though I do realise that the practicalities of doing this without massively increasing dwell times is the main factor for not doing such a thing
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Rereading it makes sense now, as at a platform conductor rail will almost always be on the side opposite to the interface, so passengers will not embark across the conductor. If Spanish-style platforms did exist [in third-rail land] falling into the gap would be even more dangerous.

Im not really knowledgeable enough on the engineering side of things to know about this hence why I am asking maybe a daft question BUT:

Does at least one shoe on each side have to be in contact with the 3rd rail at all times? If not would it not be possible to have gaps where the doors would open so that should someone fall down they dont make connection with the 3rd rail?

 

[pendolino]

When TPWS was installed approaching buffet stops

Is that like a PNB?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Does at least one shoe on each side have to be in contact with the 3rd rail at all times? If not would it not be possible to have gaps where the doors would open so that should someone fall down they dont make connection with the 3rd rail?

One shoe per unit is enough, no need for one on either side simultaneously.

 

[A-driver]

One shoe per unit is enough, no need for one on either side simultaneously.

Except on 313s where the 2 coaches which have equipment in them arnt bus wired so you need 2 shoes in contact, one at the front and one at the back. If the B end has a shoe in contact but not the A then you won't have a running compressor and if driving from the A end you won't be able to get going again without changing ends. On DC the middle coach isn't needed at all as it only houses AC equipment.

Also, clips comment about the DLR managing both doors open-those trains are designed with seperate door controls so if the guard uses a left hand panel the left hand doors close only. Then they can use the right hand panel to close the right hand doors. On the mainline the door close buttons arnt seperate so pressing any door close button will close any open doors regardless of which side.

 

[A-driver]

Is that like a PNB?

That's predictive text for you but took me a while to spot it!

 

[ert47]

With the platform extensions in place, I don't think that the London end of Norwoods' platform 1 has a facing platform 2. I'll double check, but this would only be a problem for trains that have to go to the last car stop sign.

 

[A-driver]

With the platform extensions in place, I don't think that the London end of Norwoods' platform 1 has a facing platform 2. I'll double check, but this would only be a problem for trains that have to go to the last car stop sign.

That is correct, even before the extensions there was a gap at the London end.

 

[CatfordCat]

Ascot used to have platform both sides for the London-bound platform if you approached from Reading.

It was within fairly recent years (i.e. after removal of slam door stock) that they stopped opening doors on both sides.

I must admit that this seemed faintly illogical at the time, as it's far safer with sliding door trains than it used to be, when there was more chance of a passenger opening a door on whichever side the guard wasn't looking out. The risk of falling on to the live rail hadn't quite occurred to me...