Door positions, "InterCity feel" etc

[Bletchleyite]

Thought this worth its own thread after it coming up repeatedly on threads about the Class 197.

Am I the only person who thinks the "wide doors at quarters" position would be optimal for all UK rolling stock, or almost all of it other than the Sleepers?

Having had to squeeze past standees on a crowded Pendolino to get off yesterday, the end doored layout seems to be awkward for almost everyone. If you've got luggage it can be hard to get down the narrow aisle. If you've got a pram, your options are very limited. Space for standees is similarly limited. Boarding takes a while, and it's hard to pass people in the whole length of the coach if all seats are taken rather than the doors acting as passing places.

Sure, you lose a few seats to wider intermediate doors (but no more than 2 rows or so per coach). But trains with doors at quarters like the Class 380 (ironic that it's a suburban EMU) still to me retain the InterCity feel while being much more accessible than long vehicles with end doors. And carrying noise is much less of an issue when you have three small saloons in a coach rather than one massive one.

There is to be fair the "cold draughts" issue on Scottish long distance services, but you can put vestibule doors either side of doors at quarters, though admittedly you need more than an end doored train.

Thus, should all new UK trains be built with doors at quarters, thirds or even just one set at the middle-ish as FLIRTs tend to have? I think so. I sort of get the feeling that the Class 730 could well be the most optimally laid out medium to long distance train in the UK, once it enters service.

 

[bramling]

Thought this worth its own thread after it coming up repeatedly on threads about the Class 197.

Am I the only person who thinks the "wide doors at quarters" position would be optimal for all UK rolling stock, or almost all of it other than the Sleepers?

Having had to squeeze past standees on a crowded Pendolino to get off yesterday, the end doored layout seems to be awkward for almost everyone. If you've got luggage it can be hard to get down the narrow aisle. If you've got a pram, your options are very limited. Space for standees is similarly limited. Boarding takes a while, and it's hard to pass people in the whole length of the coach if all seats are taken rather than the doors acting as passing places.

Sure, you lose a few seats to wider intermediate doors (but no more than 2 rows or so per coach). But trains with doors at quarters like the Class 380 (ironic that it's a suburban EMU) still to me retain the InterCity feel while being much more accessible than long vehicles with end doors. And carrying noise is much less of an issue when you have three small saloons in a coach rather than one massive one.

There is to be fair the "cold draughts" issue on Scottish long distance services, but you can put vestibule doors either side of doors at quarters, though admittedly you need more than an end doored train.

Thus, should all new UK trains be built with doors at quarters, thirds or even just one set at the middle-ish as FLIRTs tend to have? I think so. I sort of get the feeling that the Class 730 could well be the most optimally laid out medium to long distance train in the UK, once it enters service.

I’ve always been most happy with the door positions as found on Networkers / Electrostar / Turbostar (etc). In fact I prefer this to end doors, even on longer distance journeys. It adds some privacy, though walk-through spoils this.

So no you’re not the only one who prefers this. Indeed I don’t get why some people seem to wax lyrical about end doors.

 

[hexagon789]

Thought this worth its own thread after it coming up repeatedly on threads about the Class 197.

Am I the only person who thinks the "wide doors at quarters" position would be optimal for all UK rolling stock, or almost all of it other than the Sleepers?

Having had to squeeze past standees on a crowded Pendolino to get off yesterday, the end doored layout seems to be awkward for almost everyone. If you've got luggage it can be hard to get down the narrow aisle. If you've got a pram, your options are very limited. Space for standees is similarly limited. Boarding takes a while, and it's hard to pass people in the whole length of the coach if all seats are taken rather than the doors acting as passing places.

Sure, you lose a few seats to wider intermediate doors (but no more than 2 rows or so per coach). But trains with doors at quarters like the Class 380 (ironic that it's a suburban EMU) still to me retain the InterCity feel while being much more accessible than long vehicles with end doors. And carrying noise is much less of an issue when you have three small saloons in a coach rather than one massive one.

There is to be fair the "cold draughts" issue on Scottish long distance services, but you can put vestibule doors either side of doors at quarters, though admittedly you need more than an end doored train.

Thus, should all new UK trains be built with doors at quarters, thirds or even just one set at the middle-ish as FLIRTs tend to have? I think so. I sort of get the feeling that the Class 730 could well be the most optimally laid out medium to long distance train in the UK, once it enters service.

As long as you have internal push-button sliding vestibule doors (and perhaps draught diffusers in the doorways) - no, I don't really see an issue with one-third/two-thirds doors or centrally placed single doors à la Stadler FLIRT.

 

[stuu]

I agree, end doors are a complete pain and I would get rid of all of them, with vestibule doors instead on longer-distance services

 

[Bletchleyite]

As long as you have internal push-button sliding vestibule doors (and perhaps draught diffusers in the doorways) - no, I don't really see an issue with one-third/two-thirds doors or centrally placed single doors à la Stadler FLIRT.

As I like fresh air I'm not sure this is that much of an issue on most English and Welsh services, particularly if you have a door autoclose timer as all new stock does, but I do get why it's an issue in the Highlands and it's easily fixed by vestibule doors.

 

[hexagon789]

As I like fresh air I'm not sure this is that much of an issue on most English and Welsh services, particularly if you have a door autoclose timer as all new stock does, but I do get why it's an issue in the Highlands and it's easily fixed by vestibule doors.

It can be an issue, even here in Glasgow I can tell you!

Many's the time in the autumn/winter when fierce cold blasts of air have done the best to negate the heating on even short suburban routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It can be an issue, even here in Glasgow I can tell you!

Many's the time in the autumn/winter when fierce cold blasts of air have done the best to negate the heating on even short suburban routes.

I wonder if it can be partly addressed by the position of the air conditioning ducting to create an "air curtain", a bit like is done at some shops?

 

[bramling]

I wonder if it can be partly addressed by the position of the air conditioning ducting to create an "air curtain", a bit like is done at some shops?

On the 365s it wasn’t an issue as the heating was very fierce when on full - to the point where even in the height of winter there would be complaints on Twitter about the interior being too warm. I never minded this, as I’m quite happy with heating on full with windows open, IMO the best of all worlds. I guess it may be more of an issue on air conditioned stock.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the 365s it wasn’t an issue as the heating was very fierce when on full - to the point where even in the height of winter there would be complaints on Twitter about the interior being too warm. I never minded this, as I’m quite happy with heating on full with windows open, IMO the best of all worlds. I guess it may be more of an issue on air conditioned stock.

On LNR I find it an issue on 319s but not on 350s, so I think some thought may well have gone into mitigating it via the HVAC system.

 

[hexagon789]

I wonder if it can be partly addressed by the position of the air conditioning ducting to create an "air curtain", a bit like is done at some shops?

Not a bad idea.

 

[HSTEd]

Now that full width sealed gangways are available for new rolling stock, I'm not sure door positions particularly matter any more.

Ideally doors would be positioned at equal spacings down the length of the entire train. Which would happen to be at quarters I guess!

But I think all rolling stock needs wide doors for rapid loading and unloading given the comparatively short journeys and high intensity in British rail operations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Now that full width sealed gangways are available on most rolling stock, I'm not sure door positions particularly matter any more.

I did find it an interesting observation that on the Merseyrail 777s people don't automatically go to the door in the same coach like they would on a traditional one, they walk through if they're in one of the single door end vehicles and it's a bit crowded by the single door. That seems to be (over time) mitigating the issues caused by only having the single door there.

But I think all rolling stock needs wide doors for rapid loading and unloading given the comparatively short journeys and high intensity in British rail operations.

I think what's fairly important is keeping the walk to access a door to a minimum. With a 26m vehicle, you're potentially having to walk about 12m from the middle of the vehicle to the door - with doors at quarters* that's reduced by about half.

You've also got the potential to have smaller doors at thirds as say the Javelin units do - they don't have to be super-wide, though it can help passenger movement and add standing capacity.

* Quarters evens out the maximum distance to the nearest door, thirds means the vehicle ends are further from one than the middle section.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I spent many years commuting on the Circle/Hammersmith & District line. The trains had 1/3, 2/3rds doors and schematic line maps over the doorways (and very hard seats). Accordingly, when I travel on a Class 350 or 360 - which have all these features - I associate the two, and subconsciously regard them as slow and tedious, even though they can do 110 m.p.h..
Travelling seated anywhere on either of these one will be very aware of every station stop - the opening of doors and, in winter, the drop in temperature - the experience on a journey of an hour or more seems just so much poorer than in a Pendo. or even a Class 222, where you're not so aware of station stops.
But that's just my opinion - I know that others on this forum think the change from Class 222 to Class 360 for, e.g. St Pancras - Wellingborough journeys was a big improvement.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I spent many years commuting on the Circle/Hammersmith & District line. The trains had 1/3, 2/3rds doors and schematic line maps over the doorways (and very hard seats). Accordingly, when I travel on a Class 350 or 360 - which have all these features - I associate the two, and subconsciously regard them as slow and tedious, even though they can do 110 m.p.h..
Travelling seated anywhere on either of these one will be very aware of every station stop - the opening of doors and, in winter, the drop in temperature - the experience on a journey of an hour or more seems just so much poorer than in a Pendo. or even a Class 222, where you're not so aware of station stops.

Agreed.

I know that others on this forum think the change from Class 222 to Class 360 for, e.g. St Pancras - Wellingborough journeys was a big improvement.

I'm quite sure nobody thinks that

 

[Neptune]

I agree 100% with the OP and all the ‘issues’ people like to come up with can be negated.

1) “Wide doors lose seats” - Do they really lose that many? If it was 2 per doorway that is 8 seats per coach. How many trains run at 100% capacity all day long? Here’s an example. There are 76 seats, 2 toilets and 2 luggage racks in a 1980’s refurb mk3 coach. Compare that to 76 seats in a class 195 centre car which includes 4 stand backs in the centre section. Replace these stand backs with 2 luggage racks and 4 seats and then add in a standard toilet and that is still 76 seats with decent legroom and mainly around tables. No loss of seats with wider disabled friendly wide doors.

2) “It’s freezing cold in winter when the external doors open” - As mentioned up thread by @Bletchleyite, add in vestibule doors as per the 745’s and it isn’t beyond a possibility to have an air curtain across the door which can activate when the doors are released blowing warm air in winter and cool in summer. In any case when passengers board an end door coach the cold air from outside can still get into the saloon once the vestibule doors are opened.

3) “The toilets are in the saloon” - Can’t honestly see the problem with this one however if it actually was a real life problem then design coaches with the toilets at the end of the saloon as now but make them opposite each other as per the as built mk3 EMU stock (317 etc). Then nobody has to sit opposite it. With a sliding door blocking it off it would be no different to current end door stock. The disabled areas seem to work just fine and they generally have the added bonus of plentiful flip down seating.

4) “They don’t feel Intercity” - Well I think this is purely a nostalgic rail enthusiast POV (and the ‘family/friends’ who always seem to agree with them even though we’ll never be able to question them on whether they really actually care, or if they even exist half the time). I’ve travelled on TPE for the last 17 years on 185’s and they were fine even when competing with other operators up the ECML to Newcastle. The only issue with them is that they‘re not long enough but then again how many people complain about Voyagers which are also shorter than what they replaced. I know which doorway I’d rather be stood in on an overcrowded train and it’s not the narrow Voyager one.

5) “You wouldn’t need ‘commuter style doors’ if the IC operators didn’t allow local journeys“ - Sadly this seems to be another way of thinking on here. It seems some people think that it’s disgusting that people are allowed commute between Sheffield and Leeds or Bristol - Bath etc.. on an IC service. I honestly think that people are self centred enough to believe that they should have a bay of 4 to themselves without being disturbed for a long distance journey and how dare they stop anywhere other than their origin and destination.

In a world on here where a few posters on here seem to think that it’s trains or nothing for transport they forget that trains are simply mass people movers. To make them work they need to work for everyone. Enabling them to move masses whilst still achieving comfort for longer distance passengers is possible, it‘s just that compromises are needed and those who seem to wish every train was an as built mk3 are the ones who don’t want to budge, yet moan that people commute by car because of the awful commuter conditions on these trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that's just my opinion - I know that others on this forum think the change from Class 222 to Class 360 for, e.g. St Pancras - Wellingborough journeys was a big improvement.

3+2 seating maybe not (but I don't like that anywhere, narrow 2+2 with wide aisles works better for commuter services where standees are intended), and not the hefty fares, but St P to Wellingborough/Corby is very similar in nature to the Northampton semifasts, no reason it shouldn't run with the same type of stock.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2023 ==

4) “They don’t feel Intercity” - Well I think this is purely a nostalgic rail enthusiast POV (and the ‘family/friends’ who always seem to agree with them even though we’ll never be able to question them on whether they really actually care, or if they even exist half the time). I’ve travelled on TPE for the last 17 years on 185’s and they were fine even when competing with other operators up the ECML to Newcastle. The only issue with them is that they‘re not long enough but then again how many people complain about Voyagers which are also shorter than what they replaced. I know which doorway I’d rather be stood in on an overcrowded train and it’s not the narrow Voyager one.

I actually think the long (5 bay) centre section in the Class 380 does have that "InterCity feel". Quarters do work better than thirds in this regard (and as I mentioned equalise the furthest seat from the door between the sections, which thirds as per the CAF units and stuff like 150s doesn't, with doors at thirds the most distant seat in an end section is twice as far from the door as the most distant seat in the middle section).

What gives InterCity feel to me is more:

• A reasonable proportion of table bays with full size tables
• 2+2 in Standard with armrests
• High quality lighting (ideally subdued indirect general lighting and LED spots down the aisle, and individual reading lights for each seat)
• Good quality seats with winged type headrests
• Not packing seats in excessively
• Good luggage provision

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I've always thought doors in the middle (thirds or quarters or just one in the middle) are better than end doors .
Having doors in the middle reduces walk distance to any seats, and reduces the distance to the doors.
It just feels more efficient, especially if you can fit two people through a set of doors at once (as I often see on 150s)

If you want doors at the ends then why not go for a 142-like setup, where there's only 1 set of doors in the middle instead of 2 right next to each other.

 

[Sorcerer]

For me personally I actually prefer doors on the end of each coach when it comes to InterCity trains because a proper saloon area feels like a more premium service that you can relax on rather than a bustling commuter service you use to get to work every day. However, I also appreciate the fact that functionality is a bigger priority for a modern railway or else we wouldn't have gotten rid of steam engines in mainline service, so if doors in the middle of each coach is more useful for dealing with passenger crowds then by all means. For what it's worth the 745s are still InterCity trains despite their door layout. With HS2 though I feel like that more premium feel of saloons and end doors can at least be afforded once more provided the line doesn't become the Aston-Acton shuttle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For me personally I actually prefer doors on the end of each coach when it comes to InterCity trains because a proper saloon area feels like a more premium service that you can relax on rather than a bustling commuter service you use to get to work every day. However, I also appreciate the fact that functionality is a bigger priority for a modern railway or else we wouldn't have gotten rid of steam engines in mainline service, so if doors in the middle of each coach is more useful for dealing with passenger crowds then by all means. For what it's worth the 745s are still InterCity trains despite their door layout. With HS2 though I feel like that more premium feel of saloons and end doors can at least be afforded once more provided the line doesn't become the Aston-Acton shuttle.

While I don't want to drag this off as a debate on that, it seems likely HS2 will have compulsory reservations, which does at least negate the overcrowding issue.

However if the intention is to have very fast station calls at Old Oak (assuming Euston happens), doors at quarters would help with that. To be honest the Class 395 would make a very competent design of domestic high speed train, far more so than the 80x. (Both are of course AT300 variants). The 395 has doors at thirds but they are single leaf and not full-width, a bit like the 444 which people see as an end-doored unit but quite a few of the doors aren't at the ends.

And there's not, to be fair, that much difference between Aston-Acton and St Pancras to somewhere in Kent!

(Yes I know they're only 140mph units)

 

[Sorcerer]

While I don't want to drag this off as a debate on that, it seems likely HS2 will have compulsory reservations, which does at least negate the overcrowding issue.

However if the intention is to have very fast station calls at Old Oak (assuming Euston happens), doors at quarters would help with that. To be honest the Class 395 would make a very competent design of domestic high speed train, far more so than the 80x. (Both are of course AT300 variants). The 395 has doors at thirds but they are single leaf and not full-width, a bit like the 444 which people see as an end-doored unit but quite a few of the doors aren't at the ends.

And there's not, to be fair, that much difference between Aston-Acton and St Pancras to somewhere in Kent!

(Yes I know they're only 140mph units)

If the 444 doesn't count as end-doored then that means all TGV models (Eurostar included) and the AGV aren't end-doored either since their doors are halfway between the end and middle of the coach. The Stadler Giruno on the Swiss Gotthard Route is another example of a high speed train with mid-coach doors along with the 745. Interestingly, all of them share the Jacobs Bogie design as well which plays a big part on door placement, so at least Stadler had it right putting the doors nearer the middle of the coaches rather than the ends.

 

[Neptune]

I would 100% call 444’s end door stock. Only the door adjacent to the disabled area is not at the end. Any other doors on them that aren’t bang at the ends are no different to 158 inner ends and they’re definitely considered end door stock (see how rubbish they are on commuter services around Leeds).

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the 444 doesn't count as end-doored then that means all TGV models (Eurostar included) and the AGV aren't end-doored either since their doors are halfway between the end and middle of the coach. The Stadler Giruno on the Swiss Gotthard Route is another example of a high speed train with mid-coach doors along with the 745. Interestingly, all of them share the Jacobs Bogie design as well which plays a big part on door placement, so at least Stadler had it right putting the doors nearer the middle of the coaches rather than the ends.

The 444 is to be fair mostly end-doored. My point with that was more to be fair that it doesn't have to be "1.5-2m doorways at thirds" or "1m doorways at the ends" - "1m doorways at thirds" are also an option, which is what the 395 does.

 

[Sorcerer]

The 444 is to be fair mostly end-doored. My point with that was more to be fair that it doesn't have to be "1.5-2m doorways at thirds" or "1m doorways at the ends" - "1m doorways at thirds" are also an option, which is what the 395 does.

For what it's worth I agree with your points about door placement. Thirds, quarters or middle design seems most optimal for passenger flow rather than concentrating them to the ends of each coach. For me I feel like actual end doors is better for a premium/flagship feel on InterCity trains where comfort is more of a factor given longer journeys, which on Britain's modern railway is less of a priority than functionality and with overcrowding being a factor.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the 444 doesn't count as end-doored then that means all TGV models (Eurostar included) and the AGV aren't end-doored either since their doors are halfway between the end and middle of the coach.

They're at the ends on Eurostar. Only one end in fact.

Double deck TGVs have them in the middle due to the low floor sections being between the bogies, same with Stadlers. But I think double deck is a different game not really relevant to the UK.

The Stadler Giruno on the Swiss Gotthard Route is another example of a high speed train with mid-coach doors along with the 745. Interestingly, all of them share the Jacobs Bogie design as well which plays a big part on door placement, so at least Stadler had it right putting the doors nearer the middle of the coaches rather than the ends.

Yes, the Giruno and PKP's FLIRT are good examples of a 395 like hybrid, with a narrow door but not at the ends. It's also only one per vehicle which can cause crowding, but the intermediate fully articulated vehicles are only 16m so that makes it less of an issue when compared to only having a single door per side on a 24m vehicle as the Eurostar E320s have.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The 185 first class section, hidden behind vestibule doors, very much has an “intercity” feel. So doors at quarters or thirds can work and still be comfortable enough.

But it is interesting that nowhere else in the world has high-speed intercity stock with doors at thirds or quarters. They all have end doors, even the Shinkansen with its 30-second dwell times. If it was more efficient or better one would expect it to have been done somewhere else in the world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 185 first class section, hidden behind vestibule doors, very much has an “intercity” feel. So doors at quarters or thirds can work and still be comfortable enough.

But it is interesting that nowhere else in the world has high-speed intercity stock with doors at thirds or quarters. They all have end doors, even the Shinkansen with its 30-second dwell times. If it was more efficient or better one would expect it to have been done somewhere else in the world.

I think where I'd be more coming at this from is that the only true InterCity services in the UK where almost everyone is making an end to end (or at least long) journey with very little intermediate usage are:
1. LNER KX-Inverness and Aberdeen (and MAYBE Edinburgh fasts, but there's a fair bit of intermediate travel)
2. Lumo (see note on 1)
3. Paddington-Cornwall (but not within Cornwall itself)

Near enough everything else is hybrid in some way. Certainly all TfW services (which are what sparked this) are regional or regional express in nature, even those operated using Mk4 stock. But even Euston-Manchester is to *some* extent.

Thus, we need hybrid solutions. We could of course change our services around so e.g. Euston-Glasgow services don't carry North West local traffic or people don't go Manchester-Stockport/Macclesfield/Stoke or Euston-MKC on Avanti services, but that's not how our railways are now.

 

[Mike Machin]

The line I use most regularly is Sørlandsbanen between Oslo and Kristiansand. This is very much an Inter-City route with some of the new sections providing very high speed running and the FLIRT trains introduced around eight years ago all have their doors at one-third/two-thirds. Even with the icy climate in the Winter, the units remain cosy and having the wider doors in these positions certainly pays dividends in allowing easy access and exit to busy passengers with luggage on the services that work through to the airport Gardermoen.

 

[Gaelan]

1. LNER KX-Inverness and Aberdeen (and MAYBE Edinburgh fasts, but there's a fair bit of intermediate travel)

The Aberdeen one gets a fair amount of usage Fife-Edinburgh, in my experience. It replaces what would otherwise be the hourly Aberdeen-Edinburgh ScotRail, with similar (though not identical in Fife) calls, so I imagine it plays a similar role in the Dundee-Aberdeen area too.

 

[Tayway]

The Aberdeen one gets a fair amount of usage Fife-Edinburgh, in my experience. It replaces what would otherwise be the hourly Aberdeen-Edinburgh ScotRail, with similar (though not identical in Fife) calls, so I imagine it plays a similar role in the Dundee-Aberdeen area too.

Indeed, I've used it for various hops between Stonehaven, Montrose, Arbroath and Dundee as I would any other ScotRail train.

 

[Irascible]

This came up as it usually does in a thread about the WoE line. Simple matter is if you have big vestibules at 1/3ds on a long distance trip where people don't stand, you're wasting space for absolutely no good reason ( and in particular for WoE trains, they need the seats ). You could fit luggage racks and make intercity style vestibules at thirds I guess - but I suspect optimally they wouldn't be the same size as a more suburban style so you're still building a new bodyshell & doors anyaw - but then that also puts people sitting right next to the corridor connectors/end of the vehicle which moves laterally a lot or you have tiny saloon areas & a loo before the connector, so I guess it's just a matter of taste at that point, a little comfort vs less seats to struggle past to get off.