DOO now coming to Sweden

[Carlisle]

Very much so as that's the crux of the concerns in the OP. I'm not necessarily anti DOO in principle, I am against leaving lone members of staff to deal with certain situations for extended periods of time,

Have we established if Guards are to be redeployed to stations to provide disabled assistance etc as happened on London Overground or not ?

 

[Tom999333]

Hypothetically speaking if every guard/conductor was 100% perfect 24/7. Patrolling the train, checking tickets ect ect. Would the user base of this forum change its mind in support of keeping the guards role as it is until the whole UK rail network is fully upgraded even if this takes 20-30 years for network rail to complete (including outside the M25) to make DOO operations a perfectly acceptable option for both RMT & ASLEF.

Secondly those guards I spoke of before who are continuously patrolling, scanning tickets till they’re blue in the face. Would you be in support for them to keep the wage & T&C’s they were previously on? as previously mentioned your point of view as a passenger only sees and appreciates the in-saloon part of the job “passengers don’t care about the operations”.

Or would you prefer to see those ticket scanners who previously worked to the bone scanning tickets 24/7 downgraded minimum wage?

 

[yorkie]

Hypothetically speaking if every guard/conductor was 100% perfect 24/7. Patrolling the train, checking tickets ect ect. Would the user base of this forum change its mind in support of keeping the guards role as it is until the whole UK rail network is fully upgraded even if this takes 20-30 years for network rail to complete (including outside the M25) to make DOO operations a perfectly acceptable option for both RMT & ASLEF.

I don't understand what you are trying to say, but the RMT are highly unlikely to see DOO as "acceptable", at least not publicly.

Secondly those guards I spoke of before who are continuously patrolling, scanning tickets till they’re blue in the face. Would you be in support for them to keep the wage & T&C’s they were previously on? as previously mentioned your point of view as a passenger only sees and appreciates the in-saloon part of the job “passengers don’t care about the operations”.

Again I don't really understand what you are saying here; I do maintain that passengers aren't interested in intricate details and just want to see a visible staff presence when travelling.

If the drivers involved in this dispute want the public on side (maybe they do or maybe they don't), that's the approach they should be taking, rather than taking issue with the method of operation of the train, in my opinion.

Or would you prefer to see those ticket scanners who previously worked to the bone scanning tickets 24/7 downgraded minimum wage?

No-one is being downgraded to minimum wage, nor likely to be.

I don't understand the reference to people being "worked to the bone"; you are presumably travelling on a different rail network to me.

 

[SthlmDriver]

To be fair in the context of the question if I was the driver I'd be quite concerned at the idea of having my backup if I'd just killed someone on the line removed and being told "yeah, it's OK, just get on with it". It's a reasonable worry to have.

I've certainly known drivers in those kind of circumstances very much in need of assistance - either because they've been physically hurt in the process or because they're in a state of shock and struggling to function.

Best of luck and I hope the response in Sweden is better than it sometimes is in the UK!

Yeah, that's one of my main concerns. Having blood and guts all over my windscreen and still having to keep passengers calm while we wait for assistance and a relief driver.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Mar 2023 ==

Yes there are no doubt reasons but the point is the public are just interested in seeing a visible presence; they don't mind what role the staff do.

The staff could be either on board or at stations, depending on the nature of the network (e.g. Strathclyde vs London Overground are run very differently to each other, but both methods work well).

As a general rule people do want to see tickets being checked/scanned, whether that be at stations or on board, again depending on the network.

If the staff in Sweden want to get passengers (and MPs etc) on side, that should be the road they are going down, rather than concentrating on the method of operation of the train.

Indeed. Surveys have shown that just seeing the guard on the platform when people get on, gives an assurance to the passengers. When I'm just watching a screen with lots of small images of the doors from my cab, there's no visible staff in sight, and that, sadly, makes some people behave like animals. Knowing that someone they've actually seen is "watching", people tend to behave better.

 

[AlterEgo]

Have we established if Guards are to be redeployed to stations to provide disabled assistance etc as happened on London Overground or not ?

This would be an important factor. LO’s safety and perception of the same skyrocketed after the new trains came in and their stations were all refurbished. Properly lit, staffed stations and walk-through trains increase people’s perception of safety.

 

[Tetchytyke]

On DOO services in the UK many stations are staffed to accommodate for the lack of second staff member on board the train

I’m not sure that’s true at all. It’s true on Merseyrail and LO- but more as a response to chronic anti-social behaviour on stations and a notorious stabbing in Kensal Rise than anything else. Away from those operators, the big stations have staff and the small stations don’t. You don’t see many staff on SouthEastern, or on the T&W Metro, or in suburban Glasgow (although the latter is supposed to have Ticket Examiners on board).

Anyway, and away from my quoted post, moving on to “is DOO safe?”, the answer is undoubtedly yes. But that’s not the question the OP is asking. “Is DOO less safe?” is the question they are asking. My view is that it probably is; trap-and-drag incidents happen with guards but most of them happen under DOO.

 

[Meerkat]

trap-and-drag incidents happen with guards but most of them happen under DOO.

Is that per passenger mile operated?

 

[ComUtoR]

Anyway, and away from my quoted post, moving on to “is DOO safe?”, the answer is undoubtedly yes. But that’s not the question the OP is asking. “Is DOO less safe?” is the question they are asking. My view is that it probably is; trap-and-drag incidents happen with guards but most of them happen under DOO.

The OP didn't ask if DOO was less safe or mention safety at all. Safety isn't the main concern with DOO. We generally run a safe railway. What we are trying to do is run it with a minimal staff as possible.

Our DOO concerns come from our experiences with how it truly "operates"

 

[AlterEgo]

Is that per passenger mile operated?

This is a stat we never got to the bottom of several years ago. The real stat would be *per station stop*, and DOO is heavily concentrated on suburban routes with very many passenger stops. I don’t think we can make too accurate a comparison here.

 

[Meerkat]

This is a stat we never got to the bottom of several years ago. The real stat would be *per station stop*, and DOO is heavily concentrated on suburban routes with very many passenger stops. I don’t think we can make too accurate a comparison here.

Per passenger per station would be better - more risk if 100 passengers are getting on at a station than one.

 

[yorkie]

I’m not sure that’s true at all. It’s true on Merseyrail and LO- but more as a response to chronic anti-social behaviour on stations and a notorious stabbing in Kensal Rise than anything else.

Do you have any evidence that if a stabbing hadn't happened at Kensal Rise, the TfL takeover of LO would have been done any differently?

Whatever anyone says about DOO, I doubt anyone could deny that pretty much everything about the network is better than it was before the changes were made.

Away from those operators, the big stations have staff and the small stations don’t. You don’t see many staff on SouthEastern, or on the T&W Metro, or in suburban Glasgow (although the latter is supposed to have Ticket Examiners on board).

The Scotrail Stathclyde operation is run completely differently to London Overground but both systems work really well for the networks they serve in my opinion.

Anyway, and away from my quoted post, moving on to “is DOO safe?”, the answer is undoubtedly yes.

Agreed. It's shocking to see some people within the industry trying to suggest that the industry doesn't operate safely; rail is one of the safest modes of travel.

But that’s not the question the OP is asking. “Is DOO less safe?” is the question they are asking. My view is that it probably is; trap-and-drag incidents happen with guards but most of them happen under DOO.

Do you have any statistucs to back this up? Even if it's true, it is very rare, and as you say it does happen with Guards. Rail is a very safe mode of transport.

The OP didn't ask if DOO was less safe or mention safety at all. Safety isn't the main concern with DOO. We generally run a safe railway. What we are trying to do is run it with a minimal staff as possible.

Our DOO concerns come from our experiences with how it truly "operates"

I agree with you that the railway is safe, but I don't think it's possible to read the original post without detecting at least a hint of safety being considered a factor in their concerns.

 

[O L Leigh]

Do you have any statistucs to back this up? Even if it's true, it is very rare, and as you say it does happen with Guards. Rail is a very safe mode of transport.

The inability to produce stats on demand does not mean that a statement is untrue. If you look back through discussions on this forum, trap and drag incidents that get discussed are primarily relating to DOO services. Yes rail is overall a safe method of transport, but trap and drag is a weakness that affects this method of working more than guard dispatch.

I agree with you that the railway is safe, but I don't think it's possible to read the original post without detecting at least a hint of safety being considered a factor in their concerns.

There certainly are concerns that play on the mind of a driver. Since changing companies I have fewer things to worry about than when I was working DOO services. We’ve all seen the stories of strandings and mass breakouts, which also seem to disproportionately affect DOO services, and no driver working with a guard is going to have to contemplate having to leave the train unstaffed while they carry out protection of the line.

Rarity of incidents like this may be one thing, but the possibility of something like this happening is always there and contingencies do need to be planned and resourced in order to give reassurance. It’s the same reason why trains carry flags, dets and fire extinguishers. The situation may never arise when you would have to use them but we still carry them nonetheless.

 

[Meerkat]

The inability to produce stats on demand does not mean that a statement is untrue. If you look back through discussions on this forum, trap and drag incidents that get discussed are primarily relating to DOO services. Yes rail is overall a safe method of transport, but trap and drag is a weakness that affects this method of working more than guard dispatch.

You don’t have stats then say it definitely is an issue for DOO more than guarded areas.
Considering DOO is on some of the busiest lines you can not really say that without weighted stats.

 

[Tetchytyke]

In terms of DOO and PTI, of the 8 incidents RAIB deemed serious enough to require investigation in recent years, 2 (James St and Newcastle Central) involved a guard and 6 did not. DOO accounts for less than 30% of traffic, but it does also primarily operate on busier urban and suburban routes with more stops. The ORR are focusing on training relating to DOO and the PTI for a reason.

If you look back through discussions on this forum, trap and drag incidents that get discussed are primarily relating to DOO services. Yes rail is overall a safe method of transport, but trap and drag is a weakness that affects this method of working more than guard dispatch.

Absolutely. It’s also telling that RSSB and ORR have stopped reporting PTI incidents by method of working. Maybe I’m cynical but I can’t work out why they would do that(!)

I’m not a fan of statistics tennis, and the question is always reversible: so others have statistics to show DOO is safer at the PTI?

It doesn’t help that the RSSB requires you to be a member to get their statistics!

There are also weaknesses with guard despatch-once the local door is closed there’s no visibility, whereas DOO monitors briefly remain active as the train starts to move.

 

[O L Leigh]

You don’t have stats then say it definitely is an issue for DOO more than guarded areas.
Considering DOO is on some of the busiest lines you can not really say that without weighted stats.

OK, well it can just as easily be done the other way around. Have you got the stats to show that trap and drag is not more of a risk for DOO services? As I understand it, there has only been one for a guard dispatched service (TPE: Newcastle).

 

[Meerkat]

OK, well it can just as easily be done the other way around. Have you got the stats to show that trap and drag is not more of a risk for DOO services? As I understand it, there has only been one for a guard dispatched service (TPE: Newcastle).

I’m not the one saying whether it is safer or not, so I don’t need the back up of stats.

And as we dont get DOO trap and drag incidents hitting the press every month it doesn’t seem that it’s a problem. Back to the age old ‘safer, but how much safer, and what Is the cost’ debate.

 

[O L Leigh]

And as we dont get DOO trap and drag incidents hitting the press every month it doesn’t seem that it’s a problem.

Lots of things don’t make the press but are still problems, and that applies to all areas of life. It’s the press that decide what’s newsworthy.

 

[Meerkat]

Lots of things don’t make the press but are still problems, and that applies to all areas of life. It’s the press that decide what’s newsworthy.

Sure, but level crossing incidents usually make it.
And the RMT wouldn’t be shy in highlighting it.

 

[O L Leigh]

Sure, but level crossing incidents usually make it.
And the RMT wouldn’t be shy in highlighting it.

Well, trap and drag incidents on DOO services do not affect RMT members.

 

[Meerkat]

Well, trap and drag incidents on DOO services do not affect RMT members.

But they are relevant to RMTs campaign to have guards on all trains.

 

[O L Leigh]

But they are relevant to RMTs campaign to have guards on all trains.

Perhaps. I’m not so sure that it’s an issue that is front and centre in the minds of passengers, though.

 

[Tom999333]

I don't understand what you are trying to say, but the RMT are highly unlikely to see DOO as "acceptable", at least not publicly.

Again I don't really understand what you are saying here; I do maintain that passengers aren't interested in intricate details and just want to see a visible staff presence when travelling.

If the drivers involved in this dispute want the public on side (maybe they do or maybe they don't), that's the approach they should be taking, rather than taking issue with the method of operation of the train, in my opinion.

No-one is being downgraded to minimum wage, nor likely to be.

I don't understand the reference to people being "worked to the bone"; you are presumably travelling on a different rail network to

I believe you haven’t read or understood the beginning word hypothetically.

 

[Tetchytyke]

And as we dont get DOO trap and drag incidents hitting the press every month it doesn’t seem that it’s a problem.

210 serious injuries and deaths on National Rail and another 20 or so on London Underground last year.

So it’s 5 serious injuries or deaths a week.

Slips, trips, and falls elsewhere in stations injured or killed 600+ in the same period, by comparison.

The OP didn't ask if DOO was less safe or mention safety at all. Safety isn't the main concern with DOO. We generally run a safe railway. What we are trying to do is run it with a minimal staff as possible.
Our DOO concerns come from our experiences with how it truly "operates"

Safety’s certainly been implied in the questioning.

I’d agree that DOO needs to be considered holistically. The aim of DOO is to make “more publicly accessible staff” a nice to have, rather than an essential- i.e. the train can run without them. Which is where my real misgivings lie in relation to the issue.

Using the T&W Metro for so long, with its chronic and worsening anti-social behaviour problems, made me very cynical about DOO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Using the T&W Metro for so long, with its chronic and worsening anti-social behaviour problems, made me very cynical about DOO.

Manchester Metrolink does too. I think having mostly or only gated stations make more difference than a guard hiding in the back cab, though - London Underground doesn't have a serious ASB problem and that's DOO, whereas Merseyrail did traditionally have a bit of one (though not as bad) until the zero-tolerance rentathug approach cleaned it up.

Also, there are DOO services without ASB issues. I don't think the Brighton Express or Chiltern are renowned for them. Thus it's fairly relevant what sort of places it runs through.

 

[yorkie]

Using the T&W Metro for so long, with its chronic and worsening anti-social behaviour problems, made me very cynical about DOO.

You seriously expect a metro system like that to not be driver only operated?

You're talking about something completely different, which is a second person, not involved in the operation of the train, checking and issuing tickets and performing customer service duties, surely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You seriously expect a metro system like that to not be driver only operated?

You're talking about something completely different, which is a second person, not involved in the operation of the train, checking and issuing tickets and performing customer service duties, surely?

Much as I'm no great fan of them, systems that have turned around serious ASB problems like the New York Metro and Merseyrail have done so not using guards (which would generally hide in the cab for their own safety, as they often do on both of those systems which do have them and always have) but rent-a-thug security teams in problem locations and on problem trains.

Gating stations also helps. A near-fully gated system like London Underground tends to have less ASB, because people who knock around looking for trouble aren't going to pay for the privilege of doing so. The Tube feels very safe to me - not-always-gated London Overground and not-gated-at-all (obviously) London Buses are far worse for it.

 

[Meerkat]

210 serious injuries and deaths on National Rail and another 20 or so on London Underground last year.

So it’s 5 serious injuries or deaths a week.

Have you got the source for that please? Not doubting you just curious about them considering the lack of press interest.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Have you got the source for that please? Not doubting you just curious about them considering the lack of press interest.

It’s in the ORR annual report under section 3:

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/2131/rail-safety-april-2021-to-march-2022.pdf

 

[AlterEgo]

It’s in the ORR annual report under section 3:

https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/media/2131/rail-safety-april-2021-to-march-2022.pdf

I note that says “platform edge incidents” not “PTI”, so it will include people falling off the platform, or people falling under stationary trains for example. I don’t see that it reads as that they’re all trap and drag incidents.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You're talking about something completely different, which is a second person, not involved in the operation of the train, checking and issuing tickets and performing customer service duties, surely?

I think the two things are linked.

The point of changing the guard role to a TE/OBS role was to make their presence optional. If the train can operate without them then they don’t need to be there. There are advantages, such as in disruption only needing one member of staff to run a train.

But anything that is not mandatory is discretionary. It’s fair to say I’m not wedded to any one method of operation, but a method which only mandates one staff member will inevitably regress to that level eventually.

T&W Metro has never had guards so no, I don’t expect any different. But you don’t get this level of ASB in West Yorkshire where urban trains do have guards, even if they stay in their cab between stops they have some presence that a DOO service does not.