DOO now coming to Sweden

[yorkie]

Both in terms of liability and circumstances that you could find yourself in, such as dealing with disorderly passengers alone, potentially on trains that are otherwise empty, like described by the OP.

If you had a disorderly passenger in the front portion of (say) a 6-car 185 and the Guard was in the rear portion, how would you enlist the assistance of a Guard? Also, how would this compare to a DOO service with an on board manager on (say) a 3-car unit?

 

[falcon]

I've been driving the commuter trains in Stockholm for over a decade. We've always had a guard on board. The service is operated by Chinese MTR and now they are removing the guard from the trains, leaving me alone on board with 600ft of train and over 1.500 passengers.

I'd be happy to hear about your experiences with working like this and how stuff like evacuations, fire, torn powerline and people with disabilities have been solved, or, realistically, tried to be solved.

Our union is fighting hard against this, but MTR has been controlling the narrative by saying that the system works great in the UK.

Any input would be much appreciated.

In the UK it is the Train Drivers that say if DOO is going to be introduced.

How is it that you do not have the same power to strike if DOO is threatened?

 

[yorkie]

In the UK it is the Train Drivers that say if DOO is going to be introduced.

How is it that you do not have the same power to strike if DOO is threatened?

They could strike, but it would still be implemented.

 

[eldomtom2]

Erm. Secured the train properly at the top of the hill.

When the fire department shut the remaining engine down because it was smoking it ceased creating air to keep the brakes on. Brakes eventually came off and the train rolled down the hill and killed 39 people in a horrendous fire, but had the train had all it's parking brakes applied, and had the train not run late causing the driver / engineer to run out of hours blah blah blah.

I am assuming that DB Cargo have the last maroon and gold locos in the world since the Australian, New Zealand and Estonian operations ceased.

Well, if there was a conductor they presumably would have started their shift at the same time as the engineer, and IIRC didn't the engineer fail to set enough handbrakes because they'd been trained wrong?

 

[the sniper]

If you had a disorderly passenger in the front portion of (say) a 6-car 185 and the Guard was in the rear portion, how would you enlist the assistance of a Guard?

It'll likely be dealt with at the next station, where you'll both be present. If the disorder is such that the train is brought to a stand or the Driver is incapacitated, the Guard can get to the front unit via the ballast.

 

[yorkie]

It'll likely be dealt with at the next station, where you'll both be present. If the disorder is such that the train is brought to a stand or the Driver is incapacitated, the Guard can get to the front unit via the ballast.

And how often does that happen in practice? If the disorder is that serious, surely it would require the police to be called rather than one or two members of staff place themselves in harms way?

 

[falcon]

W

They could strike, but it would still be implemented.

Eh!

Try it in the UK and see what happens.

Unless the drivers agree it won't happen.

implemented

 

[RailExplorer]

I've been driving the commuter trains in Stockholm for over a decade. We've always had a guard on board. The service is operated by Chinese MTR and now they are removing the guard from the trains, leaving me alone on board with 600ft of train and over 1.500 passengers.

I'd be happy to hear about your experiences with working like this and how stuff like evacuations, fire, torn powerline and people with disabilities have been solved, or, realistically, tried to be solved.

Our union is fighting hard against this, but MTR has been controlling the narrative by saying that the system works great in the UK.

Any input would be much appreciated.

I drive those MTR trains in London that you and your company refer to. You can only do what you can do in terms of evacuations, emergencies etc - they are very rare anyway but your priority will be to make the situation safe. We as drivers take no action to help passengers with disabilities in normal operation as it's not part of driving the train (emergency evacuation is different). Platform staff deal with this fully in normal operation. Disorderly passengers have to sort themselves out but I will contact the signaller and ask for Police attendance if I become aware of anything. My limits of helping really are to stay in the driving cab, observe the onboard CCTV and delay the train until other staff/police come to assist.

I've driven trains with a guard and without a guard, and from purely a train driving perspective, I don't really mind which one I drive. The only thing that annoys me is having to make public announcements about delays because I rarely know the reason. We aren't allowed electronic devices in the cab to actually check what is causing the delay so we just say something like "we are held at a red signal". Making manual announcements when the automatic ones fail (for station stops for example) are equally as annoying as it distracts from the job of driving but I only do these when I feel that it's safe to do so. But apart from that, I'm happy with driving DOO trains.

Are passengers happy? I've no idea. But that's up to the passengers to voice their concern about disability access etc.

 

[Craig1122]

Both in terms of liability and circumstances that you could find yourself in, such as dealing with disorderly passengers alone, potentially on trains that are otherwise empty, like described by the OP.

I've seen the comparison to London Underground made quite frequently but it doesn't really stand up. On LU nearly every station is staffed and are a few minutes apart from each other. Those staff are also trained to go track side and to deal with initial response to incidents like one unders.

I've a great deal of sympathy with drivers on the national network who may have to deal with incidents and upwards of 1000 passengers entirely on their own with any assistance potentially a very long distance away.

 

[Ashley Hill]

There are drivers at my TOC who transferred here away from DOO areas as they hated it. Not just ex BR staff but newer drivers too.
Getting rid of guards is just a money saving exercise to increase profits to the company concerned and companies like MTR are only in it for the money. The public will not benefit and the tickets will not get cheaper.

 

[the sniper]

And how often does that happen in practice? If the disorder is that serious, surely it would require the police to be called rather than one or two members of staff place themselves in harms way?

Varies, only a few weeks ago I know of a group trashing a train who had a good go at breaking down the Driver's door while in a station, they were only noticed in the first place by the Guard. I'd say I've had four situations in the last year that I wouldn't have wanted I or the Guard to deal with alone, mostly trying to deal with or refuse travel to groups of yobs, plus having to liaise with the Signaller, Control, 999...

 

[LowLevel]

To be fair in the context of the question if I was the driver I'd be quite concerned at the idea of having my backup if I'd just killed someone on the line removed and being told "yeah, it's OK, just get on with it". It's a reasonable worry to have.

I've certainly known drivers in those kind of circumstances very much in need of assistance - either because they've been physically hurt in the process or because they're in a state of shock and struggling to function.

Best of luck and I hope the response in Sweden is better than it sometimes is in the UK!

 

[ComUtoR]

I'd be happy to hear about your experiences with working like this and how stuff like evacuations, fire, torn powerline and people with disabilities have been solved, or, realistically, tried to be solved.

The shift in liability is huge. Your personal responsibility will shift dynamically. Some things, like doors, become very critical, but many passenger responsibilities are taken away.

Passenger assistance has become the responsibility of station staff or various assistance schemes. On my part of DOO land,. I am not trained to use the ramp and our on board ones are purely for emergency purposes.

In emergency or other safety of the line related events. My sole responsibility is to protect the line. Thankfully the UK network is pretty good and those kind of events are not common. We get a fair amount of derailments; often low speed, often freight (apologies to any freight colleagues). Fires are shockingly common but even those tend to be localised and not raging infernos.

Operationally, my concerns are few. And, as has been mentioned. Those generally aren't the main issue(s)

Our union is fighting hard against this, but MTR has been controlling the narrative by saying that the system works great in the UK.

The same people that love to espouse DOO and it's "benefits" also tend to say that other countries around the world, specifically Europe, do things a lot better. DOO is not something I support but I would caveat that anything taken from the UK system doesn't automatically apply to anywhere else and you will need to look at our system as a whole and not cherry pick to suit a narrative.

From a Passenger perspective. DOO is horrid.

 

[yorkie]

I've seen the comparison to London Underground made quite frequently but it doesn't really stand up.

No need to make that comparison as it works fine on the National Rail network on a daily basis, with millions of journeys undertaken safer than almost any other transport mode.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

There are drivers at my TOC who transferred here away from DOO areas as they hated it. Not just ex BR staff but newer drivers too.
Getting rid of guards is just a money saving exercise to increase profits to the company concerned and companies like MTR are only in it for the money. The public will not benefit and the tickets will not get cheaper.

Do you have evidence that DOO TOCs make greater profits than TOCs with Guards?

Varies, only a few weeks ago I know of a group trashing a train who had a good go at breaking down the Driver's door while in a station, they were only noticed in the first place by the Guard.

But they could have been noticed by a TTI/OBM/OBS. And it's not practicable to have a Guard (or indeed anyone) in every coach or portion of a train.

I'd say I've had four situations in the last year that I wouldn't have wanted I or the Guard to deal with alone, mostly trying to deal with or refuse travel to groups of yobs, plus having to liaise with the Signaller, Control, 999...

Indeed for serious incidents you'd need backup and not be able to tackle the assailants, whether there be one person or two (and also irrespective of whether the second person, if present, is a TTI/OBM/OBS/Guard).

The same people that love to espouse DOO and it's "benefits" also tend to say that other countries around the world, specifically Europe, do things a lot better.

Generally speaking that's absolutely true.

DOO is not something I support but I would caveat that anything taken from the UK system doesn't automatically apply to anywhere else and you will need to look at our system as a whole and not cherry pick to suit a narrative.

Do you operate DOO services yourself? I believe the answer is yes. If you really think they are not safe, why would you continue in that role?

From a Passenger perspective. DOO is horrid.

From a passenger perspective, the average passenger is not at all interested in the operation of the train. What passengers do want to see is someone constantly patrolling the train (ideally checking and issuing tickets, and not having to constantly go to a back cab or whatever), where practicable; this may not be practicable on some networks e.g. LO, where it may be more appropriate to have the stations staffed. The exact role of the persons who passengers encounter isn't really of interest to the customer.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Passenger assistance has become the responsibility of station staff or various assistance schemes.

We have many rural stations (ex LTV) that are unstaffed and yet the trains are DOO.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Mar 2023 ==

Do you have evidence that DOO TOCs make greater profits than TOCs with Guards?

I’m not being drawn into an argument. You love DOO,and I’m a guard. We both have our views which won’t change.

 

[yorkie]

I’m not being drawn into an argument. You love DOO,and I’m a guard. We both have our views which won’t change.

I am very much in favour of a highly visible staff presence where the member of staff actively patrols the trains checking tickets, as in places like Strathclyde (among other places), yes. Or alternatively, a system such as London Overground may be more appropriate in urban areas.

This is indeed more preferable to what I tend to experience on operators near me, such as TPE particularly on an evening, where the doors are operated by a Guard who you seldom see.

We'll have to agree to disagree as you are looking at it from a completely different perspective (i.e. protection of your particular job role) whereas customers have rather different priorities.

 

[ComUtoR]

We have many rural stations (ex LTV) that are unstaffed and yet the trains are DOO.

The mobile apps are superb !! Passengers can arrange assistance 24hrs in advance and assistance will absolutely be available for them.

As the Driver, it doesn't matter to me as I don't know anything about it so my responsibility is zero. I just close the doors after the train safety check and depart.

 

[SthlmDriver]

And how often does that happen in practice? If the disorder is that serious, surely it would require the police to be called rather than one or two members of staff place themselves in harms way?

We wake sleeping passengers, drunk, sober, high or in any other state every shift. Sometimes more than one. You never know what will happen when you wake them.

 

[ComUtoR]

We wake sleeping passengers, drunk, sober, high or in any other state every shift. Sometimes more than one. You never know what will happen when you wake them.

We walk past them. The responsibility is down to platform staff, or we get permission to move to a location as ECS (empty coaching stock) where we get met by staff to remove them.

 

[the sniper]

No need to make that comparison as it works fine on the National Rail network on a daily basis, with millions of journeys undertaken safer than almost any other transport mode.

Weren't they referring to the differing circumstances of national network Drivers and LU Train Operators in lone working, in the rest of the post?

But they could have been noticed by a TTI/OBM/OBS. And it's not practicable to have a Guard (or indeed anyone) in every coach or portion of a train.

Indeed for serious incidents you'd need backup and not be able to tackle the assailants, whether there be one person or two (and also irrespective of whether the second person, if present, is a TTI/OBM/OBS/Guard).

If and when provided, true. If we're going to give any thought to what the OP said though, straight DOO is being proposed...

 

[SthlmDriver]

The mobile apps are superb !! Passengers can arrange assistance 24hrs in advance and assistance will absolutely be available for them.

As the Driver, it doesn't matter to me as I don't know anything about it so my responsibility is zero. I just close the doors after the train safety check and depart.

Well, it seems there is a legal deference between the UK and Sweden then. Here, the law says that handicapped must have the same opportunity to travel as any one else. So spontaneous travels must be allowed for. Before, the guard placed a ramp and asked where they want to go, and then helps them off the train.

Now, they want to place that on the driver.

 

[yorkie]

We wake sleeping passengers, drunk, sober, high or in any other state every shift. Sometimes more than one. You never know what will happen when you wake them.

To be clear, at present there are two of you waking the sleeping passengers, but the proposal is to change that to one person?

If so, that's not a DOO debate but quite a different matter and you'd have my support on that.

Weren't they referring to the differing circumstances of national network Drivers and LU Train Operators in lone working?

Well, whatever comparisons you want to give, direct comparisons will always be flawed to some degree. But the point is, the method of operation does work successfully on the National Rail network and indeed in many countries in Europe.

If and when provided, true. If we're going to given any thought to what the OP said though, straight DOO is being proposed...

I was addressing the point being made, however if the argument in Sweden was turned around to say that the Guards could alternatively be freed up to provide a TTI/OBM/OBS type role, that would be a very different argument, which would certainly get the public on side!

In my opinion that would be a far better argument than trying to simply retain an old fashioned method of working which the world is gradually turning its back on.

 

[AlterEgo]

Well, it seems there is a legal deference between the UK and Sweden then. Here, the law says that handicapped must have the same opportunity to travel as any one else. So spontaneous travels must be allowed for. Before, the guard placed a ramp and asked where they want to go, and then helps them off the train.

Now, they want to place that on the driver.

In the UK the law is generally phrased around reasonable adjustment, not “everyone must have the same opportunity to travel”. Spontaneous travel does have to be allowed for but it does work differently here.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I am very much in favour of a highly visible staff presence where the member of staff actively patrols the trains checking tickets,

This is indeed more preferable to what I tend to experience on operators near me, such as TPE particularly on an evening, where the doors are operated by a Guard who you seldom see.

The fact TPE conductors are in a local dispute regarding checking tickets after the company reneged on a gentlemans agreeement to revisit ticketing incentives once lockdown restrictions were lifted is probably the reason why...

 

[yorkie]

The fact TPE conductors are in a local dispute regarding checking tickets after the company reneged on a gentlemans agreeement to revisit ticketing incentives once lockdown restrictions were lifted is probably the reason why...

Yes there are no doubt reasons but the point is the public are just interested in seeing a visible presence; they don't mind what role the staff do.

The staff could be either on board or at stations, depending on the nature of the network (e.g. Strathclyde vs London Overground are run very differently to each other, but both methods work well).

As a general rule people do want to see tickets being checked/scanned, whether that be at stations or on board, again depending on the network.

If the staff in Sweden want to get passengers (and MPs etc) on side, that should be the road they are going down, rather than concentrating on the method of operation of the train.

 

[XAM2175]

Before, the guard placed a ramp and asked where they want to go, and then helps them off the train.

Now, they want to place that on the driver.

That arrangement has been used on the Melbourne suburban network in Australia for over 20 years now.

 

[Facing Back]

Both in terms of liability and circumstances that you could find yourself in, such as dealing with disorderly passengers alone, potentially on trains that are otherwise empty, like described by the OP.

Ok thanks

 

[Craig1122]

Weren't they referring to the differing circumstances of national network Drivers and LU Train Operators in lone working, in the rest of the post?

Very much so as that's the crux of the concerns in the OP. I'm not necessarily anti DOO in principle, I am against leaving lone members of staff to deal with certain situations for extended periods of time, outside metro networks the most cost effective way to do that is probably a second member of staff on board. And yes, as other people have already said they need to be visible not just hiding in the rear cab.

 

[yorkie]

Very much so as that's the crux of the concerns in the OP. I'm not necessarily anti DOO in principle, I am against leaving lone members of staff to deal with certain situations for extended periods of time, outside metro networks the most cost effective way to do that is probably a second member of staff on board. And yes, as other people have already said they need to be visible not just hiding in the rear cab.

This is an argument for a visible member of staff (which I agree with); whether the train is driver only operated or not is immaterial.

 

[ComUtoR]

I am against leaving lone members of staff to deal with certain situations for extended periods of time, outside metro networks the most cost effective way to do that is probably a second member of staff on board.

A little clarity here please.

Are you suggesting that on Metro networks, lone working is ok ?

I'm not sure where 'cost effectiveness' comes into play. Are onboard staff cheaper on Metro than Mainline ?

Thanks in advance.